US Should Invade Israel!

WRONG!

Please get this straight - the VAST majority (as in virtually ALL) of the people you see in Gaza or the the West bank are NOT ethnically Palestinians.

Yasser Arafat is a good example - he is an Egyptian.

There is NO comparison to Aboriginal Peoples of the USA.

(Though you could compare Mexican farm workers to Palestinians in a sense)

People.. lets get our facts straight!!

 

"Let's kill Israelis

Let's kill Americans

Let's behead more US civilians!"--Laughinwillow philosophy


Seriously Willow,do you hurt yourself thinking about ways to contridict yourself?

How would Desmond Tutu feel about your genocidel preaching?


*goes to call the good reverand and then decides to take her pet prisoner for a nice walk*




my idea still stands firm! Nuke Israel! Piss Jerry Falwell off by nuking the christian Holy Land!

 

That is why the UN set up a reservation for them in 1947. The UN needs to manage the violence in the vicinity of "their reservation!"

Changeyourlatitude

 

I think a parallel to the American Indians can still stand, for it is the logic by which the Jews claim to exclusively own Israel by birthright - that "they were there first." Regardless of whether they really are descended from the Jews, how applicable is this "birthright" logic, even if the Jews have been wronged in the past? If we really did hold the "birthright" clause to be sacred, then we'd ship out of the Americas and give it back to the Native Americans. But should we, and of course could we do that? No, because you cannot overlook the fact that so many generations of non-aboriginal people have lived here too. It's not such a clear-cut logic of birthright, and the Israelis should acknowledge that and realize that they haven't been too fair with the Palestinians. They must make some movement towards peace with the Palestinians and Arabs in general, some concessions (all this is a tall order, I know) if the Israelis really wish to live in peace and remain where they are. Else it's gonna become Armageddon there eventually.

 

Technically we are all descendents from the same anscestors.

no one is entitled to any land because of birthright or ancestry.

that's like me calling dibs on Pluto!!! I'm starting a colony on there and only Otter-people can live on Pluto!

????

 

The Palestine sympathizers seem to think that the "palestinians" have a birthright too, so....umm...

The Israelis have offered concessions. The PLO wants ALL OF ISRAEL though, and did not accept the terms.

Also, have you read the news lately? It already IS Armageddon over there.

 

I do not remember a single case of ethnic birthright recognition in the post-colonism era. Why would the world start now?

And like the other posters said, the "Palestinians" are not ethnic desendants of the region.

Alot of Jews can be linked to the 12 Jewish tribes that settled in the region thousands of years ago by thier last name.

Google for the 12 tribes, and compare them to some Jewish last names. My last name, per example, Rubin, came from the tribe of "Reuben". (Ignore the European aditions of "stein" and such, since those are just alters of the surname)

 

The UN lost all power in the area after the 1948 war broke out.

Now a-days, the terrorist organizations keep it from entering. The UN will not risk the lives of its men.

 

Just to set things straight: The UN gave up power in the disputed strip of land the day before Israel was invaded.

Also, the UN's lack of involvement there "now a-days" has nothing to do with their fear of terrorism. Much of the UN does not want Israel to exist, so they prefer to sit back and watch the bloodbath.

 

I could say the same about my in laws. They are being denied the right to return and live in the land they were born in because they are Palestinian.

What happened to the Jews of Europe was a horrible tragedy that should never be allowed to happen again, anywhere to anybody. Yet here we are so many years later, not having learned anything from the past, and so repeating it with a different group of people as the target.

 

I hope that you can then explain why the Israelies target military targets, while the terrorists target civilians.

It seems like the past is repeating, with the same group of people denied existance yet again.

 

The Jews are NOT trying to exterminate the Arabs. They are just trying to keep hold of a tiny piece of land. The Arabs are safe in almost all of the middle east, Israel only holds a tiny piece of land. Take a look at a map.

 

Please read:

MYTH 5: ARAFAT SPURNED BARAK'S GENEROUS OFFER AT CAMP DAVID AND BROKE OFF NEGOTIATIONS WITH ISRAEL

One of the most powerful myths propagated in the US media today is that at the Camp David summit in July 2000, then Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak made an amazingly generous offer to the Palestinians that Yasir Arafat wantonly spurned, broke off negotiations and then launched a violent uprising against Israel. No element of this, the most cherished of media myths is true. In fact, Barak's offer was anything but generous. It was Israel that broke off the negotiations, and the committee headed by former US Senator George Mitchell found no evidence to back the Israeli claim that the Palestinian Authority had planned or launched the Intifada.

This myth was given life in large part by President Clinton who immediately after the Camp David summit broke his promise to Arafat that no side would be blamed for failure, and went on Israeli television declaring that while Barak made bold compromises for peace, Arafat has missed yet another opportunity. Let's go through the evidence bit by bit.

Barak's "generous" offer

What Barak offered at Camp David was a formula for continued Israeli military occupation under the name of a "state."

The proposal would have meant:

• no territorial contiguity for the Palestinian state,
• no control of its external borders,
• limited control of its own water resources, and
• no full Israeli withdrawal from occupied territory as required by international law.

In addition, the Barak plan would have :

• included continued Israeli military control over large segments of the West Bank, including almost all of the Jordan Valley;
• codified the right of Israeli forces to be deployed in the Palestinian state at short notice;
• meant the continued presence of fortified Israeli settlements and Jewish-only roads in the heart of the Palestinian state; and
• required nearly 4 million Palestinian refugees to relinquish their fundamental human rights in exchange for compensation to be paid not by Israel but by the "international community."

At best, Palestinians could expect a kind of super-autonomy within a "Greater Israel", rather than independence, and the devolution of some municipal functions in the parts of Jerusalem inhabited by Palestinians, under continued overall Israeli control.

See maps showing what the Israeli proposals would have looked like in reality on this site.

John Mearsheimer, professor in the department of political science at the University of Chicago, recognized the limitations of what Palestinians were being asked to accept as a final settlement, concluding that

"it is hard to imagine the Palestinians accepting such a state. Certainly no other nation in the world has such curtailed sovereignty."

[Source: "The Impossible Partition," New York Times, January 11, 2001]​

The reality was far from the wild claims routinely made on the editorial pages of American papers that Barak had offered the Palestinians, 95, 97 or even 100% of the occupied West Bank. Barak himself wrote in a New York Times Op-ed on 24 May 2001 that his vision was for

"a gradual process of establishing secure, defensible borders, demarcated so as to encompass more than 80 percent of the Jewish settlers in several settlement blocs over about 15 percent of Judea and Samaria, and to ensure a wide security zone in the Jordan Valley."

[Source: "Building a Wall Against Terror," New York Times, 24 May 2001]. ​

In other words, if Barak intended to keep 15 percent of "Judea and Samaria" (the West Bank), he could not have offered the Palestinians more than 85 percent.

No one can seriously talk about Israel being willing to end its settlement policy if 80 percent of its settlers would have remained in place.

Robert Malley who was Clinton's special assistant for Arab-Israeli affairs, participated in the Camp David negotiations. In an important article entitled "Fictions About the Failure At Camp David " published in the New York Times on July 8, 2001, Malley added his own, insider's challenge to the Camp David myth. Not only did he agree that Barak's offer was far from ideal, but made the additional point that Arafat had made far more concessions than anyone gave him credit for. Malley wrote:

"Many have come to believe that the Palestinians' rejection of the Camp David ideas exposed an underlying rejection of Israel's right to exist. But consider the facts: The Palestinians were arguing for the creation of a Palestinian state based on the June 4, 1967, borders, living alongside Israel. They accepted the notion of Israeli annexation of West Bank territory to accommodate settlement blocs. They accepted the principle of Israeli sovereignty over the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem -- neighborhoods that were not part of Israel before the Six Day War in 1967. And, while they insisted on recognition of the refugees' right of return, they agreed that it should be implemented in a manner that protected Israel's demographic and security interests by limiting the number of returnees. No other Arab party that has negotiated with Israel -- not Anwar el-Sadat's Egypt, not King Hussein's Jordan, let alone Hafez al-Assad's Syria -- ever came close to even considering such compromises." ​

Malley rightly concluded that, "If peace is to be achieved, the parties cannot afford to tolerate the growing acceptance of these myths as reality."

The negotiations continued

While it is true that the July 2000 Camp David summit ended without agreement, the negotiations did not end. They restarted and continued until Barak broke them off in January 2001. Since then Israel has refused to enter political negotiations with the Palestinians.

On 19 December 2000, six months after Camp David, Israeli and Palestinian negotiators returned to Washington and continued with negotiations. These negotiations were based on a set of proposals by President Clinton which went beyond Barak's offer of July 2000, but still fell short of minimum Palestinian expecations. Nevertheless, the Palestinians went on with the talks.

By some accounts these were proving fruitful. The Los Angeles Times reported on 22 December 2000, that:

"Amid signs that the two sides appear to be edging toward some sort of compromise on the emotional issue of Jerusalem, Israeli and Palestinian negotiators worked through the start of the Jewish Hanukkah holiday Thursday expressing a rare shared optimism."

[Source: Los Angeles Times, December 22, 2000. "Hopeful mood fuels talks on Mideast peace; Negotiations: Israelis, Palestinians work through Jewish holiday as signs surface of a compromise."]​

In January 2001, the talks moved to Taba, Egypt, where they reportedly continued to make progress. They broke off at the end of January, and were due to resume but Barak canceled a planned meeting with Arafat. Shortly thereafter, Barak lost the election to Ariel Sharon, and the talks have never resumed.

The New York Times reported on January 28, 2001:

"Senior Israeli and Palestinian officials concluded nearly a week of stop-and-start negotiations in Taba, Egypt, tonight by saying jointly that they have "never been closer to reaching" a final peace accord but lacked sufficient time to conclude one before the Israeli elections on Feb. 6..... At a joint news conference in Taba, Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami of Israel called the two-way talks, from which the Americans were conspicuously absent, "the most fruitful, constructive, profound negotiations in this phase of the peace process." He said the two sides hoped to pick up where they left off after the elections -- although his boss, Mr. Barak, is expected to lose."

Source: New York Times, January 28, 2001, "Mideast Talks End With Gain But No Accord."​

So how is it then that all these commentators and Israeli officials continue to deny that talks which the Israeli foreign minister at the time called "the most fruitful, constructive, profound negotiations," never took place? How is it that so many continue to claim that it was the Palestinians who walked away from the bargaining table when it was Israel that stopped the talks and refuses to resume them?


http://electronicintifada.net/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/4/865/printer

 

that wasnt the plan i was talking about. but right. Do you have a proposal, or are you just going to quote the intifada? What do you figure would happen if Israeli forces withdrew? Peace? right.

 

The UN will not get involved because much of the UN does not want Israel to exist. I think more strait forward is the UN members which could fix the problem are controlled by their minorities which swing the vote to keep a particular party in power. Germany has its Turks and France other Islamic tribes and so on... This is why Europe likes to beat up on the US when we don't see it from their point of view. Europe's Mexicans would fire the presidents if they didn't support the Palestinians.

Changeyourlatitude

 

http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3818&page=6&pp=10

Scroll down a bit and find my post, I'm not typing it all out again.

 

Hmmmm....some seem to disagree with you :

The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates.
It includes parts of Syria and Lebanon.
Rabbi Fischmann, member of the Jewish Agency for Palestine,
in his testimony to the U.N. Special Committee of Enquiry, 1947

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves."
Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.


"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.


"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves…politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”
Speech by David Ben-Gurion, 1938, quoted in Zionism and the Palestinians by Simha Flapan, 1979

After we become a strong force as the result of the creation of the state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine.
David Ben-Gurion

"We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai."
David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff
I am a black South African, and if I were to change the names, a description of what is happening in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank could describe events in South Africa.
Archbishop Desmond Tutu, during Christmas visit to Jerusalem, December 25, 1989

"We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters."
Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet - Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.


I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. What you don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it.
Ariel Sharon to Amos Oz, editor of Davar, Dec. 17, 1982


"I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do."
Ariel Sharon, In an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956.

"I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian childs existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger."
Ariel Sharon, In an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956.


You were saying....?

 

If your proposed "multi-faith state" were to be a democracy, i doubt it would be multi-faith for long. I love the idea and the ideal, but my idealism comes second to my realism.

 

where the HELL did you get that?

That is absurd!

no one in thier right mind would say that, no matter how fanatic.

Sharon is a county leader, he simply cannot say that because of media issues.

I am sorry, but that is bullshit, and so is whatever source you got it off from.

 

Look, we could quote until the cows come home, and frankly I do not have time to respond to your pile of quotes (all of which are taken out of context) but really, face the facts. Actions speak louder than words. Have the Israelis blown up any Palestinian nightclubs? Elementary school busses? Didn't think so.