US Healthcare debate discussion

(To post 99)Yeah, I know he doesn't, but something strikes me as wrong when it becomes "necessary" to force people to enrich business interests or pay a fine. (I know--forced auto insurance, for which I have no answer, except that our roads allow folks to drive 60 miles an hour in 3-4 thousand pound vehicles 4 feet away from each other in the opposite direction, to mention one stupid situation. I am fortunate enough to have medicare and a supplement, because I sure as hell needed it these last 5 years.

In California before I moved back up here to Oregon, I got a notice that I would have to start paying workmans comp. When I protested that at that point I HAD NO EMPLOYEES, I was told--too bad. "you have to pay because too many contractors were cheating"!! No days on that one. "It was called A Ghost Policy"

 

As a European from a country with a reasonably good healthcare system (the Netherlands) I am amazed how so many Americans are opposed to it. It works great here and even though I hardly ever needed healthcare, it is great to know I can get it for free whenever I need it. Or that my mom, who got cancer, can get a proper treatment without worrying about the costs.

You really want to have someone ask you if you can afford to pay for medical care when you are bleeding to death in the street after an accident?
Or when you are old and retired and need medicines and wondering how and if you can afford them?
Or a million other examples?

Even as someone who is generally opposed to governmental influence, I think this is a great thing. That is what being part of a collective means, rather than an egoistical individualistic approach. We take care of eachother. We take care of those who are worse off.

I just don't get it.

 

What is so egotistical about an individual approach?

 

Well, I think that question answered itself.

 

Good post , bird. Some of us pioneer types over here just don't get the feeling you expressed. Incapable , I'd say.

 

You guys get all the feelings you want from the "togetherness" of oby care. Go sing kumbaya. I got my health insurance for lest than half of the government price. My deductable is less than half. I accomplished this in the course of one lunch with my agent. No 3 day wait to log into a down system. No thanks. Not for me.

 

On that last part, that's not true, especially in the hypothetical context in which your response was addressing.

If you lost your job and healthcare coverage was interrupted for your spouse in the middle of treatment, that was a pre-existing condition in many cases and you could be DENIED coverage as you tried to buy it from a private insurance market when you lost your job.

Meaning your wife, child, or whomever was dependent on your medical coverage that was attached to your job is now screwed.

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Also, you can't just up and move, and I'm amazed you'd float that notion as a rebuttal because you seem to be pretty smart.

Families have mortgage obligations, and criminal/civil penalties exist if you just walk away from a house before paying it off.

Moving, takes time and planning, it's got to be cost effective lest your family will fall into poverty from a former middle-class position (again bad for the economy everytime that happens). Moving is usually not done on the spur of the moment for a reason because it needs to make sense in other areas of your life (job, social connections, cost of living adjustments, realistic options on where you CAN move), not just on the single issue of your healthcare/hospital bills.


And you're right, if you can find a healthcare plan that is OUTSIDE the exchanges that you think is a better deal, then that option is STILL available even though Obamacare is the law. As an added benefit you, as an individual, would meet the healthcare mandate, and wouldn't be taxed.

Obamacare doesn't FORCE people to buy through the Exchange.

And that's fine as long as you have some type of healthcare. Obamacare does NOT take AWAY the freedom to buy a healthcare plan outside of the exchanges if you think you've found a better deal.

 

How many politicians run their election campaigns using collectivism as the primary issue?

 

Actually, it is true. You can find insurance for about anything if you are willing to pay the cost of it. But, I think it would be nice if it were law that when someone lost their job they could continue to remain insured under the plan they were covered by while employed by simply continuing to make the payment on their own, equal to what the company was paying along with changes to the cost as borne by the company.

It may not be easy, but if where you are living has no job opportunities it may be a necessity. I've moved numerous times over my life, the first time when a child and more than 1,000 miles so my Dad could remain employed and support us.

As I understand it, ObamaScare has requirements as to what must be covered as a minimum by any plan bought outside the exchange, which has effected the prices already making them more costly than previously which could and probably does lead to making the Exchange plan offerings more attractive initially. Force can be applied in many ways.

You remain free only to not avail yourself of healthcare, but are not free to avoid purchasing it, even if you have the means to pay out of pocket. Even auto insurance allows self insurance as an option to a market bought plan, although it is primarily an option made us of by large companies.

 

*facepalm* there is a law like that, and it was called COBRA but the problem was it was extremely expensive. In fact, I mentioned this about my family's personal situation about $2600+ premiums with a 7K deductable. That's the situation I experienced from exactly the above scenario.

Individual households, don't have the same kind of cash flow, or risk-sharing pools that a company has, so a household of 3-5 doesn't/can't negotiate with healthcare insurance providers the same way companies could (like corporations) because of a scenario similar to buying healthcare at a wholesale price.

Therefore, the price that would be expected of someone just laid-off isn't something that their former employer could afford. (sidenote: imagine the blackmail setup bosses have over employees who know they're dependent on the company's healthcare coverage for a loved one)

And how many people have the means to pay out of pocket?
I'll admit some do, but I would argue it's not a majority.

And you are free to not purchase it, you'll just be taxed for not having it.

The counter argument that someone can pay for their healthcare costs out of pocket, better have the $ to walk their talk if say:

1. They get hit by a stray bullet

2. Get into a car accident

3. Slip in the tub and it gets serious (or has a legal dependent that does)

Problem is if they can't walk their talk, it drags the entire system down because you can't not seek treatment if it gets super serious, because I think that qualifies as neglect.

And we don't turn away those who need medical help (hence the E.R.).

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Now I digress if we did get rid of the whole "we don't turn away people from the E.R." concept...that'd work too in terms of lowering costs...but we aren't doing that so...mandate to encourage people to get healthcare.

I find the former more morally deplorable than the latter.

 

Personally, I feel that if government was removed from healthcare costs would be much lower.

The Left claims that religion should be uninvolved politics yet it appears in reality to only want to make socialism into the equivalent of religion.

If you want to live as a commune, then you should join one. The problem with the communal society is that it cannot exist by means of choice as those who are most needed in providing for its needs would refrain from joining by choice, thereby leaving force as a necessary means.

 

The above post seems to make the best sense of any response to this debackle. It really does seem that barry has become the "father figure" to so many of his followers. His "group"has relied on him for food, health and education. Pretty much sounds like the relationship I have with my little girl. In Germany barry would be refered to as "vater stadt". Auchtung barry!!!!!

 

In addition, as the Left also like to apply the word democracy so liberally, why not have each State hold a referendum on ObamaScare allowing the people to decide, now having ample opportunity to read at least partially through the voluminous law, a work which remains unfinished and will require constant adjustments having effect on all living today and forever, to decide if THEY really want to allow it to be imposed upon not only us who are living today, but all our future generations. Has our government NOT stolen enough from those yet to be born already by means of perpetual deficit spending and borrowing which has created a massive Federal debt not to mention the yet to be funded liabilities which has yet to be counted in our debt?

 

The first thing would be to establish NATURAL RULE OF LAW. ie. Does barry and family do obyscare? No. We'll do it when they do.

Next, Do you get a 72% subsidy? Congress does. We'll do it , when they do it.

Unions. Get excluded. Why can't "normal" folks?

So, you see ; it's 1984. oby style. Some are more "equal" than others.

I stand by my original statement. Once again oby will be "taught a lesson" by Vlad Putin. Spank him good , Vlad. LOL

 

Well, those who don't want to join a communal society, sure, but those who would want to join, would join by choice. And there are many who "can provide" who would love to live in a communal society, and there are also many people with very little skills and very little wealth who reject communal anything on ideological ground and believe their lot in life is as it should be and worship free market forces.

 

That sounds pretty accurate Mr. Writer. So , regardless of intelligence we have those who are independent and those who are not. Hmmmmm. I know where I'm at.

 

The evidence seems to suggest otherwise. Countries with government run healthcare systems all have lower costs than the US.

 

I would agree with that if the word 'worship' were to be replaced with the word 'choose'.

 

Without knowing and examining all the facts that could be a case like that of comparing apples and oranges.

 

Maybe eggsprog hasn't but others have already done statistical apples to apples overall spending analysis as a country and he's right.

Pre-Obamacare the WHO ranked us #37, Canada was #30, and France was #1. ( I forgot where Germany placed.)