US Healthcare debate discussion

Discussion in 'Politics' started by monkjr, Jul 28, 2013.

  1. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    Actually I've not found any reliable answers to most any question I have relating to ObamaScare, and there are probably a great many more questions needing answers than the small list I presented.

    In my opinion, it should never have been passed and if not totally eliminated very quickly, it will become the greatest fiunding item of the Federal budget consuming not only all, but much more than the amount of revenue collected under the current tax rates, and very difficult if not impossible to eliminate as is the case of any government program providing something for nothing or very little to a large number of voters. More often than not the Left tactics are based on emotions, while the Right is presented as extreme for attempting to look at the facts based more on rational reasoning.
     
  2. lode

    lode Banned

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    I don't like the law, but I will point out that there are legal democratic ways to challenge this, such as passing a different proposal. But as it stands now, the law passed the house and senate, was signed into law by the president, and withstood a supreme court challenge. Suspending the government so it won't go into affect is resoundingly undemocratic.

    I don't like the law because it's inherently a scam. What we need is universal coverage because (duh) everyone is going to get sick and die. The US already has much higher healthcare costs per person per capita then all the successful universal coverage countries. It has those higher healthcare costs because we've been bamboozled with the middle man, health insurance companies.

    Rather than cutting them out, we've just given them more mandatory customers. We already all pay for the collective healthcare costs in our communities, we just do it through hospital costs which are much higher than preventive care costs.

    So it's a bum deal, but no government services of anykind which we pay for because of some political game is contemptuous.
     
  3. RIPTIDE59

    RIPTIDE59 Banned

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    Clearly , the upshot of obyscare is revenue sharing. Fiscal and physically. The young and healthy must pick up slack for the irresponsible and unhealthy. From a functional standpoint , the subsidy software is still uninstallable. This is crucial to so many. The bronze oby offering is still about $100 more than the current free market offering. This of course will probably change when private insurance invariably will increase premiums by staggering amounts. Chances are still quite strong that the system will implode long before it successfully gets off the ground. Still thinking that barry should ask Vlad Putin for some tips on this.
     
  4. monkjr

    monkjr Senior Member

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    Another upside trade-off is that Insurance providers can't stop someone's coverage for a pre-existing condition.

    So that I guess is the trade off for letting the private sector insurance groups gain new customers through the incentive of the mandate.

    However people can still choose not to get insurance and just pay the tax.
     
  5. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    Are you saying there's no greater cost to providing coverage for a pre-existing condition to be borne by the provider?

    And government gets to create more regulatory agencies, more IRS workers, allowing government to employ an even greter number of the population.

    Or the fine, depending on how you wish to look at it since it will be a mandatory purchase of something you may not want, need or benefit from if you orefer to pay out of pocket for any care you wish to receive.

    But of course we should not be calling this socialized healthcare since you remain free to not use it, for a fee.
     
  6. RIPTIDE59

    RIPTIDE59 Banned

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    Far from socialized. But heavily controlled and regulated. Giving quite an edge to insurance carriers. Giving the IRS even more power. Sorry , not for me. Reminds me of a certain time frame in Germany when my mother was sentenced by the gubmint to be a slave laborer. No, obyscare , is scary. Sadly, "the fine" increases drastically the second year. Check that one out. For those of you on "administrative welfare" your obyscare costs will be subtracted from this. Many of my "occupy type" friends are complaining about the cost of obyscare. LOL. They want it for "free"!!!!!
    Hilarious. 47%'ers gone wild. Again ,Best case: Stay healthy. Need Care? Pay cash.
     
  7. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    Not socialized huh? How about 'forced market capitalism' then?
    And that would be MORE heavily controlled and regulated than it already is.
    Necessarily, the 'fine' or 'tax' as the Supreme court seems to have labeled it, will have to be increased. they could never have passed the bill had they not low-balled the cost of it. Pelosi should have said "we need to pass the bill so you can find out what it's going to cost you."
    Should we consider it another 'upside' that our government can keep printing more wealth to distribute as costs increase?
     
  8. RIPTIDE59

    RIPTIDE59 Banned

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    Good point. Throw QE into the equation and oby is giving away handouts and essentially "paying" the juke box with countrfeit $. Additionally, you could play your "welfare" cards correctly and pay for your health subsidy with your SNAP card. Seriously , use your obyphone and call your friends.
     
  9. monkjr

    monkjr Senior Member

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    One thing I should repeat though is that the concept of the healthcare mandate, which is what we seem to be debating the political ethics about now...came from the Heritage Foundation in 1990's as a counterproposal to then First Lady Hillary Clinton's push for Single-payer healthcare reform.


    If it come from the Heritage Foundation, why is there a problem with the two parties embracing the concept of a mandate now?

    The only answer I can come up with is that they don't like Obama, and are setting up strawman fallacy arguments so they can have their turn in both legislative bodies of Congress and in the Executive. That and the party is paying the price for all the right-wing campaign slogans they sold really Red State districts...now they have to walk the talk to the constituents they have there.

    ^Individual and Riptide you gotta admit that part is true, at least about the origin of the concept of the mandate (that's even factcheckable if you don't believe me).
     
  10. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    It depends on what you are mandating. I fully support mandating that all goods and services acquired should be paid for in full, but do not support government mandating that the needs of others will be paid for by others without any choice. We are not talking about roads and bridges, maintaining and paying a military force, or other government enumerated responsibilities which comply to Article I, Section 8, of the U.S. Constitution regarding the 'general Welfare of the United States'.

    I have no idea what the Heritage Foundation had or has to say, and even if I did why would you feel that I should be bound to support their views? A major difference I've noticed between those on the Left and those on the Right is that the Left seems to rally quickly and easily around an organization for the production of their views, accepting them willingly and if any are unacceptable they refuse to say anything other than the views of the Right are worse. Those on the Right more often seem willing to allow each individual to retain freedom of choice in making decisions good or bad which have effect on their lives as long as they do not infringe directly, or harmfully indirectly upon others.
     
  11. monkjr

    monkjr Senior Member

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    That's an illusion of the right.


    The Heritage Foundation is and always has been a Right Wing think tank Individual... you make it sound as if it was a left wing one that the Left rallied behind.

    ---
    Frankly I think the Democratic party is more diverse because there exist D's who range from having pro-gun, anti-abortion views and do end up voting with R's.

    Whereas you hardly see crossover from R's to D's on issues the D's are known to support.
     
  12. monkjr

    monkjr Senior Member

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    And we'll agree to disagree about healthcare for families not being as important to the general welfare of the nation.

    Frankly I want those around me to have obstacles such as price be removed if that's what is preventing them from getting the medical care they need.

    I don't want my neighbors to choose between seeking medical care for chemotherapy or a new breakthrough in medicine or risk missing a mortgage payment which would start a process resulting in foreclosure.

    Foreclosures near me affect MY home's value at no fault of MINE.

    If say 35 years from now (under the previous healthcare system) my spouse gets a chronic illness, say collapsing spinal discs due to age for example, she'll have uninterrupted coverage if say I suddenly lost my job for whatever reason in the process of her treatment because I could buy a plan on the private market at the exchanges.



    The more people are covered the better information is available for researchers to track epidemiology of diseases.

    It's pretty important to "general welfare" IMHO.

    Care to counter that rebuttal Individual?
     
  13. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    That's quite a presumption, and if you look back at what I wrote, you'll see that I am unaware of what the Heritage Foundation position is, Left or Right, as I don't seek it out.

    All that says is that we look at the D's and R's from a different perspective, and it appears to me that many of the R's are simply D's in R's clothing.
     
  14. Individual

    Individual Senior Member

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    I've never claimed the healthcare of families to be unimportant. It appears that we disagree on the functions of our government(s) more than anything else. We have a Federal government, we also have 50 individual State governments, and as of the last census of governments taken by the census bureau every 5 years, there were a total 87,525 governing bodies below the Federal and State governments. I believe in government from the bottom up beginning with the people, not from the top down beginning with the elected Federal politicians. It should be the responsibility of the Local governments with some occasional assistance from the State to provide for their citizens in a responsible and fiscally responsible way. As our population increases some locations become inadequate in providing the resources and/or employment necessary to support everyone adequately. People need to understand that they have responsibilities to bear and sometimes may even have to relocate to bear their responsibilities in providing for their needs.

    While price may be an obsticle in obtaining what you feel you need or want, most of the things that exist today only exist because some have paid the price in bringing about their creation, and new items initially presented to the market may be quite expensive at first, more often than not they diminish in price over time increasing the availability to many more, although not necessarily all. I can live with that.

    Currently you are free to buy a plan on the private market without the exchanges, you seem to feel that it is the Federal governments responsibility to subsidize needs, while I do not, although I would have no problem if local or State governments were to do so having received the consent of a large majority of their citizens.

    Researchers can and do get the information they need by finding persons who are suffering from what ever they are researching.

    It being? And there is a defference, in my opinion, between the "general Welfare of the United States" and "the general welfare of the people living within the United States", which also in my opinion is a responsibility to be taken by the people, local governments, and lastly if needed the States,


    I have done so.
     
  15. RIPTIDE59

    RIPTIDE59 Banned

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    If I may , I would like to rebut , as well , with a recent personal story.

    Hardee is one of my pool buddies from the condo. Recently , to my surprise , he went to the exchange. He "got through" after 3 days. Being observant , he got up early and got through at 8 am. Hardee is a little older than I am. About 60. Still puffing his Salems. a pre-existing condition of an early Type 1 diabates. Hardee was presented with a bad case of sticker shock. Hardee is a self employed commercial fisherman. He "trolls" (LOL) the southern eastern seaboard . He makes about $40-50k annually. He chose the "silver" plan. His monthly hit was $597. A $13,988 yearly deduct. If you obyscare shills in the audience think this is affordable care ; I would say you need to smoke another one. I always expected sodomy at the exchange anyway.

    Here , folks is the kicker. Hardee explains the REPERCUSSION PORTION of the deal. Suspension of DL until fine is paid. Incidently , the fine increases nearly 10 fold after year 1. After year 2 , your home and bank account become targets of the IRS. Hardee's response: "O'vomit needs to be bitch slapped" Just quoting , folks.

    This is why the oppressive tentacles of the government need to be amputated. Hence the shutdown. The final check and balance. 18 of them so far. We need more.

    Hardee has fought some nasty noreasters. I've seen him shoot a shark on the deck of his boat with a sawed off shotgun. A man's man ,to say the least. He feels one way or another obyscare will be the death of him. Unfortunately, I think obyscare will lead to the early demise of many .
     
  16. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Wonder how much of that $597 goes to the insurance industry? I don't agree with the way this has been done at all and I'm sure as hell no conservative. Any of them have enough god damn sense to study up on the Scandinavian countries, the places where live the most satisfied people extant, as shown in various studies?? (Well, except for the 1% of this or any other country that has the massive imbalance of wealth that now exists. They're fine, as usual.)
     
  17. RIPTIDE59

    RIPTIDE59 Banned

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    I don't know about that $597 either , Scratcho. I do know that after my conversation with Hardee I scurried off to my insurance agent. My agent offered me a free market policy with a $5000 deductable for $230/mo. Personally, I feel my insurer treated me well. It's the government that concerns me.
     
  18. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Well Rip, doesn't it seem as if the whole rig would be cheaper if insurance companies weren't involved? My idea of a single pay would, of course be concomitant with the savings that could be realized on allocating much less war money,(Let's be real--nobody is going to attack us outright) weeding out the fat in government, tying "representatives" pay to the average working class wage(not counting that of horribly inflated CEO pay) ---and ---you know, many other ways to cut spending. Even tho our politics are probably 180 degrees apart , I agree with you that this ACA is half-assed.
     
  19. monkjr

    monkjr Senior Member

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    So you support single-payer system?

    Just fyi, I don't think Riptide supports single-payer.


    How old are you? Are you sick or ever had a medical history of asthma, fighting cancer, carrying certain genes that increase risk of developing a illness?

    Also keep in mind certain parts of Obamacare are, and were, already in effect in regards to pre-existing conditions.

    So if you went and talked to your private insurance company recently, you technically got information AFTER certain rules in the law were in place because of Obamacare.


    To see if you would be fine, Pre-Obamacare you'd have to get a quote for coverage BEFORE it became law.
     
  20. RIPTIDE59

    RIPTIDE59 Banned

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    I'm 55 , self -employed , no pre-existing , So, $227 I think , with a $5000 deductable. One physical per yr. I'm happy with that. And , correct, I do not support single payer. I would like to drop all selling restrictions and allow competition to drive prices down through in a free market environment. Needless to say I would be fine with some kind of safety net for those mentally/physically incapable of funding their own insurance.
     

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