US Healthcare debate discussion

That's not a "political spectrum", that's a spectrum of ratio of government to population.

This is a political spectrum

 

Are you telling me I'm "moderate" for wanting no government? Get out of here. The truth is, both the 'Left' and the 'Right' politically (as you're referring to it) represents more government. Therefore you all get pushed to one side. Liberals love to think Communism (total government control) is different from fascism (total government control) and it's really not; We are heading to both these things. Very, very far LEFT (more government)

My views are NO WHERE NEAR "Fascism" as your graph suggests. You're totally blinded by the Facade of government protection and help, you're ignoring everyone they hurt, and lumping them up, calling them "crazy right wing gun nuts" and all this. It's totally absurd to say Republicans are bad and go and support Democrats- Let's ban all large soft drinks and guns.

You guys are the one's dangerously close to fascism. I don't mind independent Communes being communist, but there is no reason why a single worker should be paying for food for a whole family every week. The government takes over 100 dollars to every 500$, and dumb ass Obama supporters think we just need to SPEND and TAX more, which makes no sense at all!

 

Exactly right!! Everyone seems to have forgotten that what emerged from the sausage factory known as Congress was far different from what Obama wanted. But he claimed it as his for political reasons and because, sadly, this mess called Obamacare was probably the best our sold-out politicians could come up with. It should be called Lieberman-care.

 

It should be called MonopolyCare...

It fits cause all the biggest insurance companies lobbied for it, and plus, it's a total Monopoly. They are forcing us to buy insurance and all you guys say is "well it could've been better."

Yes I agree totally- it could've been much, much better; if Government didn't get their greasy paws on it!!

 

I'm not sure why people still think a system such as France has, won't work here. Are we too dumb to figure out how to provide that MOST important of lifes prerequisites for a potentially happy life--that is -health for healths sake? If one is not healthy, the rest of ones life doesn't amount to much. Sure there are more people here than in France. Therefore more people contributing to healthcare for everyone. War money, waste money, foolishly spent money,would take care of it. Insurance companies need to go the way 8 track tapes, model Ts, and all the rest of the outdated ideas that once were important. The great advances in medical care should be brought to bear for everyone at all times. Please don't say (as some have said) --I don't want to pay for someone elses healthcare. We would ALL be in it together and I believe we would be a healthier and happier nation for it.

 

^not to mention, we're already paying for other people's healthcare. We pay for it in ridiculously expensive insurance premiums, in unpaid medical bills that get passed on in the form of higher costs in healthcare, and in an inefficient Medicaid and Medicare system.

I don't think the question should be, "Do we need a single payer system?" but rather "How can we create a single payer system that provides top notch healthcare, is efficient and will cost taxpayers as little as possible?"

 

And I get a thumbs down for trying to be a considerate citizen!?!? For trying to postulate what I think would be helpfull to ALL citizens!!?? Fuckin hell! Some people are just ignorantly mean.

 

How ideological of you; War is the health of the state, the government has not changed at all, they've just dropped extra taxes on us. We give the Government enough money to run this whole country and more, and most of it is wasted. That's why I'll never be convinced this is a good thing when it means, more taxes, more government employees, more government benefits and insurance companies making bank. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. They are not cutting any of the wasteful spending, they're just tacking on more!

Dude you're totally living off of ideologies; Government care will be more expensive for everyone, and it get government directly involved in our lives.

I assume you've not been on Medicare- Government employees are rude, they don't want to help , it takes hours to speak with a real person etc.

So you're just turning Healthcare into a dumping ground for extra government money, and a shitload extra for the insurance companies. This is government interests, the same people that push us into wars etc. Suddenly Liberals trust insurance companies with open arms, not to jack up the price, when they know the government HAS to pay it. Hmmm sound familiar? I smell Government bailouts comin'.


I think it's sad Liberals can't see the disasterous thing that government is. Most of you guys wont realize until we have government ran food chains and everything. Sounds like a perfect world right? 5/10 people are government employees, and everyone else are just serves slaving to pay for the richest and poorest in this country.

Government is the cause of most of our problems, and we will NEVER fix them through government, cause most of what people want, the politicians wont do (legalizing drugs) because they're getting too much $ from lobbyist to keep everything the way it is.

 

Yes, I'm on medicare and you make no sense at all. Read my post again-------I said GOODBYE TO INSURANCE COMPANIES. READ VULTURES PICNIC BY GREG PALAST to find out who is fucking this country. You won't.

 

That book isounds biased. It's talking bad about corporations, but who gives them power? Mostly Government. And obviously and unfortunately it's not goodbye to insurance companies- they wouldn't Lobby for ObamaCare, if it was gonna put them out of business; they lobbied for it cause they're about the rob the people blind, forcibly.. Most Middle Class Families I know are struggling to pay their bills, how is this gonna help them at all? It's not, it's a total burden. People should be able to opt out of Obamacare. It's not Moral to force everyone to buy something they don't need.

Sure, there are Corporate jerks who deserve to be punished for playing an immoral and evil game of chess with our citizens, but that should not alleviate the Treason that most in our Government are guilty of...

 

Done.

 

Wow!
In a debate thread you're done?

I think I understand why Liberals hate me- You guys don't understand the real problems, and see government as a solution. So good luck that. The government losing legitimacy, and these ideologies will fall with it.

Done.

 

That's crazy talk. You don't know your history.

 

No, Government is the U.S, is controlled by Corporations; The CEO of Monsanto was head of the FDA. (and of course legalized GMOs and NO warning labels.) The EPA has been known for merely taking bribes from corporations when they destroy the enviorment and, the Military-Industrial Complex drags us to war every 10-15 years. Most of them were little, but who benefits from war? Oil industries, bankers, arms dealers, government who plays along, and other industries as well, flourish in times of war. Government has been owned by Businessmen at least since they est. the Federal Reserve, cause again, it was all private businesses behind that, and now they utilize their legal counterfeiting operation to bail out bankers ourseas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXIsNLnMhS8"]$9 TRILLION missing from Federal Reserve - Fed Reserve Inspector 110616 - YouTube

They spend our money foolishly. If we shut down these corperate interests and the Federal Government, we would have alot more money for the people. The problem is racking more onto a Federal Level, when the Federal Government is totally corrupted. Hardly any of the money will get back to us, but alot will go to government to hire employees and print cards. I know my American History, and we're heading toward an economic crash much bigger than 08', maybe even worse than the great depression.

Free healthcare

Free Pre K

Perpetual war

Printing 1 trillion per year

Government waste, etc.

There is a limit, it's not sustainable. The dollar will crash. Can be a year or 20 years. You might not believe me, but educated economists mostly all say the same thing.

 

For sake of the learning process and discussion.

I'd like everyone to keep and open mind and watch this documentary about healthcare in other countries and how they operate. Even if you believe socialized medicine is evil and will go horribly wrong in the USA.

Just watch this and see this research this guy did and compare it to what you think you believe about healthcare in other developed countries.



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/view/

 

So if you agree it's not like shopping for a car, then the general counter-argument I've heard both Libertarians and Republicans use "Let insurance compete across state lines and costs will be driven down (an argument based on classical economics), is already proven false BECAUSE shopping for a car isn't like shopping for a healthcare provider.

An individual can minimize, their risk that they will need healthcare, but you CANNOT say with certainty that an individual will not need it one day because of:

1. Getting in an auto accident

2. developing a freak medical disease (Note: happened to about 4 very healthy young people I knew in college, and sicknesses spread in college that's for sure)

3. Sports injuries (knee, spine, head-brain)

4. Age related illnesses

So chances are, that if you are alive you WILL use healthcare services someday and very FEW can pay out of pocket 100% of the time.

Also people who are homeless often contract Pneumonia, especially during winter time, and if they go to the ER or if cops discover them, the economic DRAIN for acute medical services and the time spent on a hospital bed is wasteful spending.

It'd be cheaper for a nation, if there was a healthcare system that identified minor medical problems, nip them in the bud before they grew into something serious, and then have doctors move on to the next patient. But that's not happening, because people won't go unless they have too because it's serious.

With the nation's GDP being allocated to healthcare costs, it means families have less $ to give to other sectors of the economy, like toys, dinners out, movies, clothes, and school supplies.


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Also the only pre-school benefit I see is that single parents will have a daycare center to drop off their kids and go to work to be productive members of society.

But as to the children benefiting from a jump start, that's only been proven to help during the kindergarten years, by the time kids enter first grade any competitive edge they have against their peers who did not have pre-school, is erased.

So no, I am very torn about supporting universal pre-school, because I am not sure it's worth it but I do understand the pros and cons of how it can benefit some families and the nation's productivity. It's a neutral issue to me because of that.

 

I can say with certainty, many Americans don't need healthcare, and they're forcing those people to buy it. The middle class is already shrinking in this country, I can't believe Liberals think burderning them in anyway is helping us. Most middle class families are making exactly what they were making in the 70's- but, the price of everything has skyrocketed due to government, and of course, here we have the Liberal solution to spend more, and their anger to "thumbs down" anyone who doesn't agree with them, cause there's no logical reason why spending more on government will help the middle class, it's quite the contrary. Most Middle Class families already have healthcare, and you're just adding on to their already overloaded taxes. In the last topic, you said you don't support government force, but you do; you think government should Squeeze more money from our declining middle class, for what you believe to be the Greater Good.

 

But the issue isn't just about access to healthcare, Pre-obamacare it was about:

1. Having healthcare and having it fail you because of legal crap, and paperwork that burdens families to recall their entire medical history only to have them dropped from coverage because of pre-existing conditions.

2. Unrealistic deductables that middle class families had to meet in order for their coverage to kick-in.

3. Private health insurance costs for HIPPA or Cobra was easily thousands of dollars a month, how many middle class families can afford that?

4. Helping families get access to healthcare if they want it and were deliberately priced out of the specific medical care/treatment they needed.


So yes, in some rare exceptions when a problem like healthcare is affecting a certain percentage of the nation's GDP, I feel that the federal and state governments are warranted to draft appropriate legislation (article 1 section 8 of the Constitution) clearly gives the government this power.

The passage of Obamacare, closed the federal budget black hole created when Bush 43, signed Medicare part D, which should NEVER have happened in the first place. If Obamacare gets repealed that opens up again and the federal budget balloons even worse.


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I have to ask Stp, what is your definition of a middle class families' income level?

 

That's total Bull shit! It says for The "general welfare," that doesn't mean government FORCED insurance to 313 million people.

You know what Thomas Jefferson said?

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. "

Idk what the middle class makes, but I know Minimum wage and government involvement hasn't helped at all! A dollar is worth 1/40th of what it was when it was issued. Plus, government gets huge sums of money for bull shit. The Liberal fantasy sounds fantastic. But not done under government force- that sounds like George Orwells "1984." People would and could take care of each other without government, cause we'd have all the money they WASTE!

http://nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/

 

After rereading the thread I have a few points of information about misconceptions about the Obamacare law.

1. Taxpayer funds won't cover abortions

2. Anybody who has health care already doesn't get hit by the tax increase.

The tax increase only happens to those without any form of healthcare coverage to encourage the masses to go look for a healthcare plan on the state exchange marketplace.


All the market place does is set limits and terms on healthcare insurance companies on how they spend their funds. 80% of all the money taken in by premiums has to be spent on medical care, NOT administration costs, padding the salaries of the CEO's or board of a healthcare industry.


They theory is that by gross demand in volume, risk is spread thinner, costs driven down for families and companies that want company insurance plans from the state exchanges, and there's the competition.

Because each healthcare plan on the exchange is competing for revenue from a rival healthcare insurance company for those customers.

IMHO this is also classical economics, but funneled and focused to cut corporation abuse on consumers.