US Civil War

Yes, the film is a romance. And as romances go, a great one.

Incidentally, my earliest knowledge of the civil war came when I was a schoolboy in the mid sixties. We used to collect civil war cards, which came in a pack with a flat piece of of pink bubble gum. I think there were about twenty or so cards in the series. The most highly prized, as I reacall was entitled "Bloody battle at Bloody Angle". We werent supposed to say the word "bloody", as it was a swear word.The card gave a legitimate excuse.

Another very nice building. Clearly, they liked their neo classicism.

 

If you can find it, you should see the movie Gettsyburg. It was a commercial failure, as I would expect for something so close to a documentary. Martin Sheen does a fantastic job portraying Lee, and Jeff Daniels turns in the performance of a lifetime as Chamberlain. Berenger's Longstreet is a little too Texas for my taste, and Sam Elliott was a poor choice to play Buford, in authenticity. They just wanted a highly skilled actor to deliver Buford's powerful, dramatic monolog before the battle, and he nailed it. Gettysburg is still the best of all the CW movies with significant battle footage.

Ah, Hancock's famous attack.

:rofl: That is so...British!!! :rofl:

Unfortunately, I've never been inside that one. The elaborate gardens are open, and frequently used for weddings.

This one is convenient to Baton Rouge, and is frequently used for corporate retreats and meetings:

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I might check it out.But actually I dont really like too much violence on screen. I find it freaks me out a bit. I know the kinds of things that happen in wars, but dont like too much to view bloody re constructions. But I will see if I can find it.

I assume you have seen "Lincoln". I thought Daniel Day Lewis was very good, and it certainly re created a feel of the period. Overall though I thought it only told a small part of the big and complex story. But obviously there are limitations with films.

Ye, as I learned only much later in life.

Its changed a bit since those days. The F word is now more likely to be said than back then.
I often actually have to resort to it myself.

Wow. Bit of an Italiente element in that one. Beautiful.

 

Something else occurs to me Karen J.
You mentioned the fact that these grand mansions were built on the back of injustice and slave labour.
A man I rarely quote, Bob Dylan, says somewhere "Behind every beautiful thing theres been some kind of pain".

I think he hit the nail on the head there.

looked for "Gettysburg" on you tube, heres a link if anyaone is interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTcaRk0ZRJ4"]Gettysburg (1993) - Extended Version - YouTube

I will view it at the weekend.

 

Yeah, it could have been better, but it was worth seeing.

Another thing that was very popular here for a while was the Ken Burns documentary series on PBS.

The round end reminds me of the south porch of the White House in Washington.

The place also reminds me a little of Stanton Hall in Natchez:

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The saddest story in Natchez is Longwood:

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Odd shape, don't you think? Eight sides.

Construction started shortly before the war, and it was never completed except for the basement. First, second, and third levels, and the tower are hollow shells, except for construction platforms. The windows are boarded up.

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I'd say! Quite a profound thought there.

Great! You found the extended version! That's the best one. The battles have more emotional impact on a big screen, with a big sound system, but you will definitely get something out of this.

It isn't as bloody as some other war movies I've seen.

 

That house reminds me of many buildings. It has, I would say, a kind of fantasy element about it.
The central dome is very striking. Almost like something from Austria or even Russia.The octaganal shape reminds me a bit of the Mosque of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.
These houses seem to me very fine indeed. Obviously the folks who had them built were eager to proclaim their wealth and taste. They are very different in style to anything we have in the uk.

I think it is. I actually still quite like Dylan, but dont listen to him much these days.

Since this thread has whetted my appetite, I intend to watch it tomorrow or sunday.
Ill let you know my reactions.

 

Very unusual, for the period shortly before the war.

When you tour Longwood, the tourguides don't exactly tell you in advance what to expect. They speak in character, as if it is still 1861, and they are excited about the construction project going on above, as you are in the basement. No matter where you have been in the South or what you have seen, nothing prepares you for the shock you get as you go up those stairs! There were audible gasps from our tour group.

It seems like about one out of ten plantation owners got creative with their plans in some way, while most were built with only cosmetic variations on the "standard" concept. Most were two levels above ground, usually without a basement, and a floor plan that was nearly square. There was much more variation seen in the late 1700's.

After 1840, especially in Natchez, the central hallway in many newer houses grew to a width of one third of the total space, to be used mainly for parties. Musicians and dancing would be found in the hallway. Large parties spilled onto the front and back porches. The first level area to the left or right of the hall commonly held the kitchen, dining room, and perhaps a study or bedroom. The remaining third would be filled with a long parlor or living room, with pocket doors to divide it in half. Late in the evening, the ladies would gather in the rear half of the room, and the pocket doors would slide shut before the men got heavily into cigars, brandy, and serious discussion topics. These racists were also sexists, believing that women were not intelligent enough to understand politics, world affairs, or economics. Young people would have their party activities in the equally vast upstairs hallway, if the weather kept them indoors.

The greatest numbers of plantations could be found where cotton grew best, and where it could be easily shipped to port facilities. Due to the climate, Virginia and Tennessee were near the northern limits of economical cotton production, so there were many tobacco plantations mixed in. Tobacco was so important to Virginia that the original legislative chamber in the state house is decorated at ceiling level with tobacco leaves made of gold. North Carolina had some trouble exporting anything because of its lack of good ports and dangerous coastline. In historical areas of all three states, you see less evidence of great wealth from agriculture. NC was the poorest of the three.

After the war, northern CSA border states were quick to switch over completely to tobacco. That's why I was 18 years old before I ever saw cotton growing in a field.

Few plantation houses survived the war and reconstruction period in Georgia and South Carolina, thanks to General Sherman and the failed economy. Many simply collapsed due to lack of funds to maintain them. There are plenty of such ruins in Virginia and South Carolina, but the most famous one is Windsor Plantation, in Mississippi, destroyed by an accidental fire after the war:

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All photographs and drawings of the house burned in the fire, so nobody knows exactly what it looked like.

Away from the Gulf coast states, the best area to find surviving plantation houses is the lower James River of Virginia.

 

I forgot to mention earlier, the small room under Longwood's dome was intended to house what would have been the largest telescope in Mississippi. Since it was one of the wealthiest US states in 1860, Longwood's owner strongly felt that it should also be a national leader in scientific research and education.

Since the war, Mississippi has consistently remained at or near dead last in education and knowledge of science, and first in fundamentalist religious belief; characteristics that correlate highly with extreme poverty.

Speaking of opposite extremes, this is the oldest plantation in Virginia:

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Shirley Plantation has existed in some form since 1613. This house was completed in 1738. Robert E. Lee's mother grew up there, and got married in the parlor.

Berkley Plantation is nearby:

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...and also Westover:

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These early generation plantation houses have more in common with the English-inspired architecture found in nearby Williamsburg, the colonial capital of Virginia. None of them are white, and none have the stereotypical four huge columns out front.

I have found a few old plantation houses in south central Virginia that seem to be undocumented online. One of them had mostly intact walls, but its roof had been gone for a long time. There were mature oak trees growing inside the house, towering above it. Another old mansion was occupied by a truck driver and his family when I found it, but in poor condition. One of its four while columns was mostly black because the owner likes to park his big truck in the front yard and warm it up on cold mornings, its exhaust stack pointed at the house. There were rusting abandoned cars in the side yard, children's toys scattered around them. This is typical of the kind of economy and culture that county has had for the last 150 years.

 

Thank you for the very interesting Civil War thread Karen J. Just last year I found out that my great great grandfather was a Confederate soldier that was at Appomattox on April 9th, 1865 for the surrender with General Lee.

 

I have to agree that is a very good film. Theres a definite feel of authenticity to it I thought, and obviously a lot of research has gone into it.
The performances were excellent. I liked Lee, Longstreet, Chamberlaine..pretty much all of them.
Theres nothing like a movie like that to bring history alive, as much as thats ever possible.
I saw the end a coule of hours ago, but I can still feel a bit of adrenaline after watching that last Confederate assault. I am myself a peace loving man, but theres a kind of fascination with something like that when its so well and so dramatically shown. Despite the horror of it all.
I think maybe I now have more insight into the Army of Virginia.

Unfortunately for history, just that kind of frontal attack on defended positions was to dominate in WWI, only with superior weapons such as the machine gun.

Thanks for the recommendation, I really appreciate it.

 

Very much the same in Europe in the 19thc.
In england there were some outspoken women, Mary Woolstonecaft, her daughter Mary Shelley, politically active women too, such as Elizabeth Fry the prison reformer, and of Course Florence Nightingale. But these were thought of by the majority as "bluestockings".

And in general just the attitude you describe went on well into the twentieth century, and really only seriously got challenged after WWII. Not seriously I think until the sixties.

And before I was 18, I began to smoke those cigarettes made with fine Virginia Tobacco. Something I wish had not been so.

 

I'm glad you like it!

Have you been to the site? The NPS has done a wonderful job with it!

Tracing genealogy back that many generations can be really hard. At that level, we're related to so many different people! I haven't made much progress with it.

Michael Shaara tried to insert as much background information as he could, assuming that many readers of the original novel would be new to the subject. Many personal details came from the writings of low-level staff members of the generals.

If you ever get a chance to see it on a big TV with a big sound system, the musical score will be much more impressive. It really adds to the emotional impact.

I can't decide which is my favorite piece of acting, Buford's speech when he first understands the magnitude of what is about to happen there, or when Lee takes Stuart "to the woodshed". The Stuart scene gives us a really good idea of how Lee was able to get the very best out of his people.

What Buford did at Gettysburg is almost exactly the same thing that George Custer did to the Confederates on the first day at Appomattox.

But trust me, the real Longstreet was a bit more professional than the Tom Berenger version. He would have never been seen in public in that giant hat. Looks good on the screen, though.

The more you know, the easier it is to see the army's reputation as a separate entity from the CSA national government. Nobody is really impressed with Jefferson Davis.

I like the old quote that the Army of Northern Virginia was the best army that ever fought, fighting for the worst cause any army ever fought for.

It's a paradox that Shakespeare would have loved.

The character Scarlett O'Hara in Gone With The Wind was more wishful thinking and hope for the future than reality, unfortunately. The other female characters in the movie were quite realistic.

In this respect, the North was somewhat ahead of the South, but not much.

Before the war, some of the women of Charleston, SC were far ahead of their time, but they had to keep everything underground. They set up sewing clubs that were actually book clubs, where they met to talk about serious things that women were not supposed to talk about. They would borrow books from their husbands' libraries, always careful to return them before their husbands' return at the end of each day.

 

I had my big speakers plugged in, and I found the soundtrack excellent. Theres a moment near the end when the Confederare advance had reached the ridge when it suddenly goes quiet. That worked very well indeed.

Some small details might be missed I thought if you didnt know at least a little bit about the war in general. Theres a shot near the beginning where we see Confederate soldiers arriving, marching in a column, and theres a brief shot which shows some without boots. Theres also a mention of a stock of shoes in the town. In that way, we are shown the problems Lee had keeping his men supplied. Quite a contrast withe well equipped Union soldiers.

Its not often I see a film that has that much impact. I woke up today, and it was all going round in my head still.
I will probably try to find a copy on DVD, as Id like to see it on a bigger screen.

Indeed.

A similar paradox could perhaps be applied to the German Navy in WWII.

The depth of my knowledge of all this is limited. The only woman from the Union side I have read anything about is Mary Lincoln, who seems to have been cast in the old mould. According to Vidal, Lincolns secretaries, Hay and Nicolay used to refer to her between themselves as the "hellcat".

 

It's one of those movies where you can continue to pick up on more details every time you watch it, and other details will become more meaningful as your background knowledge increases. There's a story behind almost everything on the screen and every line, in every scene. The novel, of course, is much more detailed than the movie.

One example: In the movie, Lee mentions to Longstreet the high level of confidence he has in Alexander, in charge of the artillery. The story behind the comment is that Alexander was a very young and controversial choice to replace someone who had died in the previous battle. Longstreet was skeptical of the choice. Historians have long wondered if a more experienced and mature officer would have noticed the cannon trailer hitches digging into the mud, causing them to overshoot.

It took me a while to spot Ted Turner's cameo appearance in Pickett's Charge. Also, General Pettigrew is played by the second James Bond, George Lazenby. That isn't very well known.

The battle scenes were filmed about two miles south of the historical battlefield, to keep statues and monuments like this out of sight:

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They used the same field that the volunteer reenactors use every summer. Many of those reenactors were used in the movie, and brought their own uniforms and authentic replica weapons from home.

It's hard to comprehend the daily needs of 70,000 men. No CW movie has had a big enough budget to duplicate the supply convoys of hundreds of wagons, stretching for miles. In the future, they will be able to depict this using CGI technology.

When it was new and in theaters, you know what the movie critics said? The beards looked bad, and there weren't enough female characters. So what? That's the way American men looked back then, and there were no women in the armies. I can't believe how completely the critics missed the whole point of the story. I guess they all hated history class in school.

The book, on the other hand, won all kinds of awards.

But quite honestly, the historical characters wrote the story. All that was left to do was to present it properly.

Mary was hardly an asset or a help to her husband in any way.

During the war, women played limited roles such as nursing, and there were a few spies. Before and after the war, most feminist leaders in the US came from the North.

 

I may well check out the book since I enjoyed the film so much.

I think a book is always going to have the advantage over a film when it comes to details of history.
I got a huge amount more from reading Vidals novel "Lincoln" than I did from Spielbergs movie.

We have people here who reinact battles from the English Civil War, but on a relatively small scale. I have seen one reinactment of the battle of Worcester, which was very colourful.

If they were going to make Gettysburg today, they would use CGI quite a lot I would think, and not need so many people on the ground. Maybe its fortunate it was made when it was.

I never take much notice of film critics, and that is really just an example of the silly sniping they go in for. It would be ridiculous to show a clean shaven Genaral during that epoch, when most men had beards or whiskers of some kind. We have photos of them, beards and all. And the lack of women is obviously unavoidable if you want to show it how it was.
I just cant believe those critics sometimes.

Just the opposite I think. As you probably know, she ran up huge debts in refurbishing the Whitehouse, and on personal shopping trips to New York. If memory serves, she also had Southern connections through her family.

Another Northern woman who comes up in Vidals "Lincoln" is Kate Chase, daughter of Salmon P. Chase. She seems to have been an educated and well informed lady, but content to remain in the backgound. To serve her widower father in much the same way as a political wife might have done during his time at the treasury, and definitely seems to have tried to exert a behind the scenes influence after the war.
In todays world Kate might have been a quite formidable politician in her own right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kate_Chase

 

No, I've never been to the site, but I'm sure I would be fascinated with it. I live close to a battle site that hosts a reenactment every year, The Battle of Sacramento, AKA Forrest's First.

 

I live at the northern most point the civil war came to. There is a cannon in the spot where it took place. I did live next to the cannon for a few years before our house was done.

Croton, Ia/Athens,Mo. My grandmother was born in Athens and lived for awhile. I have went looking for old stuff and now that the river is dry, You can find some cool stuff.
Athens is the place where a cannon ball was shot through the house and the house is still there with hole(s). Nice battlefield and all. Jesse and Frank James also used a hide out cabin a few miles into MO along with a couple hidden caves in the area.

 

The story that MeAgain was talking about recently! So you aren't far from Gettysburg.

Appomattox Court House is the closest major CW historical site to where I live, but it's more than two hours away. I'm a lot closer to the Durham Station site where Johnston surrendered to Sherman, but there isn't much to see there, and I don't find Johnston or his army to be very interesting.

You would love being at Appomattox Court House on a nice day! It's a beautiful setting, with eleven preserved and/or reconstructed houses and buildings on a large, quiet, pristine site. The NPS maintains it very well. The courthouse building is a museum, and one of the tavern's outbuildings is a Civil War bookstore.

When what was left of Lee's army abandoned Petersburg on April 3rd, they moved west as fast as they could, headed for Danville, hoping to eventually join with Johnston's force that was in North Carolina. They started running out of food about two days into the march. On April 8th, they were approaching Appomattox Station, where Lee had arranged for a trainload of food to be waiting for them. The station was about two miles beyond the farming village of Appomattox Court House, population less than 150. (Current population: 0)

Grant's army was moving a little faster, partly because they were not weak from hunger, and partly because Grant was pushing them hard. As the very first Confederate troops reached the train and started to unload it, federal cavalry under George Custer rode in and chased the Confederates out. Lee sent reinforcements, but federal infantry showed up in larger numbers, and Lee's forces were kept away from that train.

Lee later wrote that on that night, some of his officers (NOT including Longstreet) recommended that the army break up into small units and begin guerrilla warfare. Lee rejected the idea as being the worst thing that could happen to the country.

The next day, other Union forces were coming up and attacking from behind and on the south side. Out of food and options, Lee sent a rider over under a white flag made from a small towel. Miles away, word was sent to Grant that a surrender was in progress. Grant had to make a long ride to circle around the Confederate Army to reach his troops in the front.

Grant came into town from the west, with the McLean house on his right. The smaller white house behind it is slaves' quarters for household servants. That's a well house out front.

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That dirt road was the main route from the Richmond/Petersburg area to Lynchburg, and it was probably in worse condition then than it is now.

Below, the county courthouse is barely visible at the end of the road, which circles around both sides of it. Lee rode in from the far side of the courthouse. The road was lined on both sides with federal troops. The white building on the far left is the town's only general store, and there is a tavern with three outbuildings further to the left, out of the picture. The tavern was out of business and empty of furniture in the spring of 1865.

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The surrender took place in the parlor of the McLean house. Lee got there first and sat down at the table on the left. Grant took the small one without complaint.

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Lee and Grant met one more time, the next day (Apr. 10) outdoors, about two blocks beyond the courthouse, to discuss additional surrender details. Grant then left town and rode back east. He had other important business to attend to, since he was still supervising Sherman and other Union commanders in other locations, who were still fighting or preparing for battles that might come at any time.

Grant was not present when formal surrender ceremonies took place on the eleventh, which involved all CSA troops turning in their rifles and muskets, swearing an oath not to take up arms against the United States government, and receiving a parole form with each person's name on it, signed by a high ranking US Army officer. A printing press was set up in the tavern, which produced thousands of parole documents. Cannons were also surrendered, but officers got to keep their pistols.

The paroles were also good for a trip home on any passenger train or ship or ferry boat, at government expense.

One Confederate artillery unit took off before the surrender, and buried their cannons in the woods somewhere north of town.

Overnight, the town of Appomattox Court House became one of the most famous places in America, but all the local residents eventually relocated to Appomattox Station, now known as just Appomattox, Virginia.

 

Civil War reenactments are huge over here, as you might expect. Many of my fellow WW2 reenactors also have Civil War impressions as well, portraying units from New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and even US regulars.

 

Even a four hour movie has to leave out a lot, when made from a book of typical length.

The successful documentary project Ken Burns did for PBS was divided up into five two-hour programs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Burns'_Civil_War

Colonel Fremantle talked about that war in the movie. Arthur Fremantle was a real person who actually was with Longstreet in Gettysburg. I've read the book he wrote about his adventures.

The only important character in the movie that is fictional is Buster, of the 20th Maine regiment. He represents the typical Irish immigrant fighting for the North.

I guess you realize that in this thread, you are playing the role of Fremantle. It's always convenient for a novelist or almost any other kind of writer to have an intelligent outsider show up and ask good questions.

Those amateur reenactors were probably paid little or nothing, and they were going to be there anyway, that time of year. I'm sure they greatly enjoyed having their annual reenactment filmed for a movie, and getting to meet and work with the professional actors who played the roles of high level officers. The great benefit of CGI would be to extend the infantry's lines further into the distance, matching the original numbers. That could actually be done to the existing footage. I'd love to see that happen.

Locals say that during the filming, many of the actors were regularly seen in town, especially Tom Berenger, who had a favorite bar where he would drink late into the night and talk about the war with local historians and visiting reenactors. After about three drinks, he would only answer to the name General Longstreet. :cheers2:

A serious history movie shouldn't even be compared to other types of movies, on the same ranking scale. If people don't care for a particular category of movie, that isn't the fault of the people who made it, and that says nothing about its quality.

I'm sure many of the more popular pop culture movies made that same year have been forgotten by now. This one will never go away.

For decades, the largest land battle that had ever taken place on American soil had never had a movie made about it, because Hollywood had long been intimidated by the size and scope of such a project. I don't see how this one could have been any better.

In some ways maybe, the Scarlett O'Hara of the North? She had the looks and the soap opera life story. I also noted the hoop skirt, not often seen in old pictures from the North.

I don't think the men of that era were doing themselves any favors by trying to keep women ignorant of what was really going on in the world. In many cases, the wives of important and powerful men simply weren't up to the challenge of dealing with their situations.

Down South, a lot of women ended up trying to plow fields during and after the war, due to all the men in their family being at war or dead or disabled. Horse drawn plows were designed for the size, strength, and weight of an average man, so the women struggled greatly. Later on, you didn't see any women wanting to do that job by choice, unlike after WWII when women had experience operating powered machinery.