Ukraine & Russia

shit this is getting serious, Italy is going to own half of NYC and Ireland is going to own half of Boston.

 

NOt serious just pro-famly vs. anti-family, what J. ortega Y'gasset called the clash of the generations.

 

oh and let me just say to the Russian propaganda unit of this thread.
if there are any US neo nazi people influencing this dispute in the Ukraine it is a very good chance they are some of the many Russian immigrants that settled here because they didnt like life in Russia.

 

just having a bit of fun here man, do i need to look up ortega to do that?

 

I don't know any Russians they've come down from stealing cars to hub caps. Don't like.

 

Remembering when Ron Swoboda played for the miracle Mets

 

Before my time as I am young at heart.:sunny:

 

you guys had tv out in the pines back then?

 

Yeah, I know, and even after the death of Jane Mansfield, who;s head was decapitated in car accident.

 

that was all rumor, and it was a different pine barrens. i had assumed since he mentioned the mets that he meant the nj pine barrens. not even sure if there was pines where mansfied died.

 

from your article:

Calling Ukraine's Euromaidan protesters neo-nazi's is a bit like calling the hipforums a holocaust denier website

 

It seems that, as with any geopolitical phenomenon, this matter is complex and being reductive will not help us understand it.

The opposition to Yanukovitch was undoubtedly a mixed grouping, and anyone with the slightest bit of informed cynicism about US policy shouldn't be surprised to learn there was US backing HOWEVER that doesn't mean that a legitimate people's movement was also not involved. To the people being crushed by Yanukovitch policies, the presence of US agitation does not make their struggles illegitimate.

Unfortunately we will find that both large powers will be trying to use and abuse the governments of smaller nations for their own ends. We should find both Russian and U.S. interference objectionable in the sovereign nation of Ukraine, and our interest should be supporting the Ukrainian people in maintaining a non-repressive and democratic government.

I have been trying hard to stay abreast of all these developments and will continue watching them with interest. Unfortunately it is very difficult indeed to find reliable information. Of course U.S. corporate media will be vilifying Russia and overplaying the legitimacy of the coup/revolution. Meanwhile alternative and leftist media in the USA find themselves in the difficult position of objecting to U.S. interference which makes them more likely to denigrate what may very well be a legitimate people's struggle, or worse yet to support Russian military action. Information coming out of Ukraine will be equally unreliable, since any given faction will be spinning the situation to support their side.

 

Here's a recap/summary of the situation. Anyone who disagrees with Russia's stance is really arguing black is white and is a menace to a safe world.

I'm a bit busy to go on the forums currently, so I've put up some links too.
Better than the troublemaking lies that come out of CNN/Fox etc.


1)Rogue elements of NATO powers put neo Nazis and terrorists into positions of power. They killed civillians, judges, politicians and police. And continue to kill and intimidate. This is a major breach of intl law, and these people should be extradited and tried. Unfortunately, it includes individuals like Obama.

2)The Ukraine only existed as a republic/"part" of the USSR. For near enough 1100 yrs its been part of the same country as Russia.
The modern Ukraine/ Ukrainian Soviet Republic was set up as parts of staunch Russia merged with parts of the former Austria Hungary etc in its far west. The idea was that the Russian part would dilute extreme right wing maniacs who have committed pogroms and genocides against Jews, RUssians, Poles and many other groups. Notably in WW2, but also LONG before then.

3)Much of the Ukraine is actually more Russian than RUssia, if you understand my phrase. Kiev, for instance, is the historical centre of RUSSIA. And only became the capital of a separate republic 20 yrs ago... after nearly 1100 years of being Russia's capital, or 2nd/3rd city.

4) The modern day postSoviet Ukraine only exists because it agreed to respect its Russians/Russian identifiers and Russian speakers. NATO and the Ukrainian Nazis have breached many agreements and laws. Therefore RUssia is within its rights to say "enough is enough", we have to govern from Moscow to protect the lives of the decent majority.

5)Russia was absolutely right to send its troops in. Nazism cant be tolerated let alone supported by foreign troublemakers on the other side of the World. It proves the claim Obama is a "liberal" is frankly a load of shit.

6)The only thing to debate is how Russia solves the matter. Either a federal Ukraine, reabsoption into Russia or some other approach. Splitting it has substantial problems. And in any event, the anti-Russian areas are only that because of the genocide of pro-Russians in WW2.

7)FRankly its none of the business of anyone in Brussels or Nato or Washington. They're only fuelled by ignorance and lust for power.

You don't give cakes and machine guns to Nazi terrorists. (Unless your name is McCain, Nuland, Obama, Merkel etc etc...)

These are some good links;-
1)RT.com

2)http://orientalreview.org/2014/03/0...west-replays-old-partition-game-in-ukraine-i/

3)A Reagan neo-Con demonstrates it all here:-

http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_03_04...e-with-its-arrogance-evil-former-US-Treasury-

official-2956/

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-crimea-fascists-forces-707/

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-nationalists-fears-video-674/

Certain places like BBC.co.uk also analysis the neo Nazis groups like RIght Sector, and their political wings/allies in the Ukraine Parliament. Unfortunately, as a state owned organisation, its not so quick to admit that these groups are organised by gps like USAID and the British, EU and US govts.

Do yourselves a favour and bin the Fox/CNN bookmarks. That sort of propagandist shit will end up causing nuclear armageddon.

Anyone who can't see/admit to the truth needs to be locked up. Its like George Wanker Bush all over again...

 

Or rather there's a certain chance that you know nothing of Russia whatsoever.

Let me say it again. The Ukraine, barring Nazi hellholes like Lvov has been part of Russia for 1100 years. To say it isn't Russia is like claiming Texas is Japanese. The Ukrainian Republic was set up to balance different groups in one region. The Nazis and their US/EU partners killed that, so Moscow has to take more of a hands on approach.

But hey, go back your "Go Team USA" antics...

Don't bother replying, the answers are all in the links.

 

Point 2 and 3 are actually the most important reason that Russia (Putin) wants to have it back. It does not make it valid to be a pushover of course.

What about all the big protests recently, where people fought and died for change? Did they do so in oreder to just be under the influence of Russia again? Any opinion, Iamnotaman? Or where they all neonazis?

 

Well said. America's run by terrorists in grey suits. The "Go Team USA" brigade wouldn't be cracking these glib comments if Russia had paid Nazis to kill Americans would it!

And some Americans still struggle to see why anyone could have wanted Sept 11. Incredible really.

America is set for a rude awakening over coming years...

 

I frankly don't know much of Russian history, but your last sentence in post 76 is correct, I believe. The MI complex has done and continues to do "things" in our names around the world that people accept, as if "we" have a right to meddle anywhere "we" want.

 

I think the problem is that whilst there may be many moderate people in the Ukraine, the neo nazi groups like Right Sector did play a big role in the violence, and now they're in the govt.
That sets alarm bells ringing for me,especially given the history of ethnic cleansing in the Ukraine during WWII.

It seems likely that the west, when they supported the protesters in Ukraine must have known who they were dealing with, and also what Putin's likely response would be. Otherwise, they are much more stupid than they appear (which isn't exactly super smart anyway).

 

BBC are ok for basic info, but they're far from impartial.

One reason I don't like Nazis is that they want to lock people up (or worse) who can't see the 'truth' as they see it.
The majority of people are simply not smart enough, nor do they care enough to do any work to keep themselves informed. Mainstream media tells them what to think and most of it they forget anyway five minutes later.

 

great example there. and the people of the Ukraine are clearly saying they don't like to be part of Russia anymore, no matter how long they were previously a part of the country. and fyi of the fact that they were Russia for 1100 years... if it was still Russia we would be calling them Russians and not Ukrainians.
and your ridiculous comment about american nazi's which the term itself is quite amusing to me. but to then say that they set up judges and politicians and whatnot but then turn around and say the fleeing president was democratically elected is just contradicting yourself orrrr picking and choosing your facts from your made up sources.
bottom line is even if the people voted for a leader. they are clearly not happy with him. with the army police and majority of civilians on their side (according to you) they still couldnt stop the minority group of people from running the government out? i would say think about what makes sense but somehow you think americans would get involved in a fight without using guns so that shows how little you know.