Trump supporters do you like this tax bill?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Balbus, Nov 29, 2017.

  1. Noserider

    Noserider Goofy-Footed Member

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    I love the two above posts so much I want to make babies with them
     
  2. GeorgeJetStoned

    GeorgeJetStoned Odd Member

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    I appreciate the sentiment, but, Jane, my wife, would ice pick me in my sleep for that. (She's from Louisiana)
     
    scratcho likes this.
  3. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    George

    I’m not a Democrat they are mainly liberals while I’m more of a leftie – but yes I’ve had many things said about me on these forums (and off) BUT I can defend myself against all of them and I‘m very happy to correct anyone on any of them.

    That is the point the problem comes when people can’t defend their ideas and views form criticism.
     
  4. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    George



    To come close to consensus you need to have honest and open debate of the issues, where people present arguments and see’s if they stand up to scrutiny and if they do good but if don’t those views are changed, adapted or dropped.

    What I’ve been pointing out here for years is that many here on both left and right but far far far more on the right, don’t seem able to defend their ideas from criticism BUT still hold them, that when their ideas do not stand up to scrutiny they don’t change them they don’t adapt them and they certainly don’t drop them.

    Then they start shouting that ‘we’ should compromise with their ideas to find a middle ground – fine I’m happy to compromise on ideas that seem rational and reasonable but why should I compromise on what seem like bad ideas that even the people promoting them don’t seem able to defend them from criticism?

    And things have got worse because so many on the right now seem to accept blatant lies as truth.
     
    Lynnbrown likes this.
  5. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    George


    Let’s look at tax


    For years those on the right have told me the right are the ones that truly have the interests of the working and middle classes at heart.


    I and many others here have explained at length and in detail why that doesn’t seem to be so, that in the last 30 years or so right wing free market/neo-liberal ideas and policies have worked against the financial interests of the majority and in the interests of the wealthy few.


    The incomes of the middle and lower classes have in relative terms and in the main either stagnated or fallen while those of wealth have ballooned vastly. The whole thing about ‘trickle down’ is a joke and also in line with neo-liberalism a lot of jobs were outsourced abroad, and the infrastructure and things like public transport have in the main been left to rot because of it.


    Thing is that people were warned about what was happening but they were ignored or dismissed because often the promoters of neo-liberalism could distract them by pushing ‘culture’ issues, the famous ‘guns, gays and god’ line that was very successful in getting many to vote against their own financial self-interests.


    But what gets me is that when the financial impact is noticed and the hurt felt many of these same people go out and knowingly vote for the same neo–liberals that favour the interest of wealth to the detriment of everyone else.


    And so we come to the present bill being pushed through by Trump and the Republicans.


    Can anyone who voted Republican or for Trump actually defend it?
     
    snowtiggernd likes this.
  6. GeorgeJetStoned

    GeorgeJetStoned Odd Member

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    It doesn't matter. We aren't able to vote on issues, a serious flaw in our form of government in my opinion. We can only vote for representatives, so it's no wonder our political system has become one long cult of personalities. For decades now voting has been a hold your nose affair as neither choice was anything close to being honorable.

    Another thing we can't do is downvote a candidate. We can't vote "against", only "for". There's no way in hell I was going to vote for the Clintons, especially after what they did to Bernie. So I held my nose and voted for the arrogant bastard with the same enthusiasm I would present in voting for a televangelist. I will admit though that he has tossed the establishment into pandemonium in a manner somewhat similar to what Bernie may have. It has been glorious watching so many useless politicians dragged out into the light of day.
     
    Aerianne likes this.
  7. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    We vote for representatives because we live in a representative democracy. A republic.
    The problems with allowing the general public to vote on every issue are insurmountable.
    First there's the logistical problem, then there's a problem with the educational level and knowledge of the general public.
    In a survey of 2,200 Americans conducted by NPR in 2012, 1 in 4 think the Sun revolves around the Earth.
    I can't know about everything that the government needs to do to run the country, and neither can you.

    Representatives are elected on the assumption that the general public can at least vote someone into office who is a tad bit smarter than they are. The representative can then devote themselves to understanding the governmental workings and the needs of their constituents, as the common man is busy with day to day living and doesn't have the time or inclination to do so.

    Representatives are also charged with protecting their constituents from themselves. We don't live in a democracy for a reason, the majority vote isn't always right. A case in point is the institution of slavery, which was very popular in the old South.

    If you're not happy with the people running for office, it's not the fault of the governmental system, it's the fault of those who you would give a pure democratic system to. If they can't pick intelligent honest people to represent them, what makes you think they can make intelligent honest decisions on every issue that comes up?

    Why would we need to vote against something? If we don't vote for it, that's the same as voting against it. Why add another layer?

    You didn't like Clinton so you disregarded her political experience, her knowledge of government and the problems facing the world and you disregarded the Democratic platform and voted instead for an "arrogant bastard" who is causing pandemonium throughout the world, and not in a good way. As if pandemonium itself is something we should strive for.

    Good show. That's why we can't have a fully democratic government.
     
  8. Meliai

    Meliai Banned

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    I dont necessarily think our representational democracy is entirely functional though. But that's mostly an issue with monied interests, not the form of government itself. If we would outlaw superpacs and only allow individual donations with a set maximum dollar amount I think we would see positive changes
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
    NoxiousGas, Tyrsonswood and MeAgain like this.
  9. tumbling.dice

    tumbling.dice Visitor

    ^^^ It's completely dysfunctional. Gerrymandering, corporate donations to congressional candidates and two filthy rich political parties...not exactly what the founders had in mind. It's sickening. Gerrymandering should be outlawed (districts can no doubt be drawn by computer now) and all campaigns should be publicly financed. I'd also like to see something done to give the 'third parties' a few seats in Congress...not sure how to do that though.
     
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  10. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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    Mega bizillionaire banker Andrew Mellon and his Republican pals passed a tax cut that is similar to Trumpy's tax bill. That gave us the Great Depression. The American people put Roosevelt in the White House and passed proper tax reform and the new deal laws to save Americans from starving and freezing to death on the sidewalks. The banks had been repossessing homes and farms and forcing people out to the sidewalks and soup lines. John Steinbeck wrote Grapes of Wrath to show us what poor families had to go through just to buy bread and beans to feed their children.
     
  11. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    As the government and nation endure and I can drive down a public highway without fear of highway bandits for the most part, it's not completely dysfunctional.
     
  12. GeorgeJetStoned

    GeorgeJetStoned Odd Member

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  13. GeorgeJetStoned

    GeorgeJetStoned Odd Member

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    Actually no, I actually thought Hillary was far more qualified than Obama, but he got the nod so we could end racism in America. Which clearly worked like a charm. Bill could have ended the war on drugs, he escalated it. I lost friends to it. And I have no doubt that Hillary would have advanced it as well, which is why I voted for Obama, even though I knew he wasn't qualified.

    I wouldn't vote for any Clinton, not even Chelsea.

    As for issues, I agree with you, allowing a common vote on EVERY issue would be a mess. But what about say, the top 50 issues. How many Americans would vote FOR the drug war, the "Wall", the various wars?
     
  14. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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    try driving down the highway in Wyoming. Ask Phil Parhamovich who was robbed by Wyoming cops.
     
  15. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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    Well George, we need to get something accomplished. Some secret money man donated $28.9 million greenbacks to get Gorsuch appointed to the high court, and get him passed through the senate. The guy is a total Evangelical Christian Fundamentalist...Oral Roberts reincarnate!
     
  16. tumbling.dice

    tumbling.dice Visitor

    Due to local law enforcement and the decency of the average person.
     
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  17. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    I thought you were talking about Trump and H. Clinton. How did Obama enter into the picture?

    The top 50 issues. Like tax reform? How many citizens know enough about the income and expenditures of the U.S. government to competently vote on tax reforms? Would we have to go through the entire tax code sentence by sentence and vote on each one?
    I'm betting the majority would do away with federal income taxes right away and then yell and scream as the government shuts down when it runs out of funds.

    But we do have referendums already, so that could be what you mean.

    As far as the drug war, are you a one issue voter? If every other program is great but the drug war continues would you vote in some "arrogant bastard" just so you could have your drugs?
     
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  18. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    I've driven in Wyoming.

    Are you basing the entire governmental system on one incident?
     
  19. ~Zen~

    ~Zen~ Ancient Mariner Administrator

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    George: This sounds like an accurate description of EVERY republican I have spoken with in the last few years. And that includes relatives, I find myself biting my tongue for the sake of peace, but is that the 'right' thing to do??

    Balbus: This is what happens when I DO express my thoughts. One went so far as to tell me to SHUTUP because I am not in the 1%... a direct quote.
     
  20. ~Zen~

    ~Zen~ Ancient Mariner Administrator

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    But back to the topic, the new tax bill is obviously a huge transfer of wealth to those who do not need it, leaving the needy in a far worse state.

    The state of humanity has certainly decayed in spite of our technological advances.
     

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