Tripoli Libya Bloodbath - Where is Gaddafi?

My rhetoric is troubling???

All I suggest is getting information from a wide variety of sources and making a rational assessment of the information gathered.
Fact is Gaddafi DID do the things I have put out there, how can you guys overlook that?
Sure maybe he did also do some positive things, every leader does to one degree or another. Hitler saved Germany from starvation, so does that excuse everything else he did?

Are you sure? Or only a diversity of sources that support your and similar positions? Because that certainly seems to be the overiding sentiment.

I'm asked to provide info about his "brutal dictatorship", I do and midgard's response is "so he killed a few dissidents, big deal".
are Tom and I the only one's to see the complete bullshit of that remark.
It also completely undermines the persona midgard would want us to see, that of a revolutionary speaking out on behalf of the abused and misused people of the world?
Am I the only one to see through midgard's facade?.

You guys are so quick to tear apart the words of others, yet fail to see the hypocrisy in your own.

Again just sad pathetic people who jump on any and all bandwagon's that carry a banner of "down with America". Doesn't matter if the reality supports it or not, you'll just ignore sources that don't line up with your ideology, yet cry foul and claim any who don't agree with do the same.

Tell me again, who are the ones going along with popular opinion in this thread?

 

It is all a big TREND. A trend that the government is aware of. Politics is well researched and well preserved for those that will do that "right thing". We need the underground movements to start again. Not the highly publicized shit that has so many followers for the image. We need people that want to help our society as a whole. Not their own selfish ways. We need to start something that won't have these people that won't fight for what they believe in. I find it amazing that alot of my friends, have such integrated opinions of things, that they have never researched themselves. Find out for yourself instead of asking the government why.

 

Because people do not fall in line with your assessment doesn't mean they are ignoring facts. I have little doubt that Gaddafi is guilty of what's been detailed here and more... but the premise that as Americans, we are qualified to lecture any other country on human rights, strikes me as a profane flavor of arrogance that inspires widespread hatred for my country that will bear its special brand of fruit for generations to come.

Libya has not cornered the market on stifling internal dissidence. In fact I'd suggest that the US has raised this very concept to an art form- sidestepping the more blatantly forceful means of stifling dissidence in favor of cultivating a culture that enforces a more covert style of censorship by establishing buzzword concepts like domestic terrorism and associating certain "extreme" opinions with it to discourage those harboring fundamental differences with the direction the US is heading from speaking out.

Again, what is definable as a wide variety of sources will vary from person to person... and the opacity of the concept makes it an easy way to justify being dismissive of viewpoints that differ from what is politically convenient to some. In the US, mainstream media are corporate owned and NOT compelled to present the whole truth... this is part and parcel to the concept of free speech as they see it- the freedom to present facts in such a way to cultivate acceptance of false premises like freedom of a people being a prime motivator for initiating aggressive military actions against countries which oh-so-coincidentally seem to be deeply involved in the oil industry.

I cite an example of this from years ago, in 2004- during the re-election campaign of GWB. An acquaintance of mine worked as a freelance photographer for an area paper corporately owned by Newhouse Newspapers- who distributed an interoffice memo to all its newspapers a few weeks before the election that any major news about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan was not to appear on the front page at the risk of editorial careers. I find it troubling that those who we're propagandized to believe are compelled to furnish objective, honest, and balanced news are in fact working to cultivate general opinions and mind sets tending to support the editorial stance of the corporate ownership.

What also troubles me deeply is how grassroots rhetoric reflects unquestioning acceptance of premises that I find to be transparently false. It is frustrating to the degree that if I expressed it properly I'd sound an awful lot like Montreal Mark... but those whom I might otherwise be railing against and launching insult tirades against are in the same political boat as me... my own rhetoric must be conciliatory cues for my countrymen to seek out sources outside the national propaganda mill to supplement the information being gathered here- as well as furnish a yardstick that out information sources can be measured against to properly assess the credibility... which I strongly see as absent.

 

When the winter Olympics can be held in Hades we can meet and discuss it there openly. Until then, let's keep the discussion here on topic please and not endanger our access to it by hijacking the discussion to launch veiled complaints about moderation.

 

I see...

 

With all due respect.
Can you show me where calm and polite conversation has done anything
to futher things?
Everythinig from the woman's rights movement to Malcom X.
Everyone cried about them being "rude".
But in the spirit of Malcom X, "you want me and people like me to
continue to be polite so you can continue to pretend to care and
do nothing but continue the status quo."

Therefore my ass is in the air and whoever wants to can kiss it
or try and kick it. But I promise that I've overdosed on laxitives.

Yea okie Yankee Doodle Dandy
Trust me that I fill my passporte with stamps a lot faster than you do.
I speak french as a first language and that alone meant that for me
to have a non-anglophone messed with francophone education
I had to go to europe.

What you need to do is turn off channel 11 and 12 or whatever other
tv station you're watching.
Learn a second language and go take a look first hand what the rest of the
world deals with because of american foreign policy. I also advise you
leave the tourist zones.

Thank you !!!
FINALLY someone that has said something intelligent.

America built the atom bomb and used it.
So that means she needs to shut up about other nations building them.

America has the biggest prison population in the world.
So she needs to shut up about other nations imprisoning people.

America brought back medieval torture.
So she needs to shut up about other nations abusing prisoners.

America has a the equivalent of a 3rd world nation within its borders.
So she needs to shut up about over-fed rich people screwing the poor.

American democracy is a 2 party system where only rich ass kissers win.
So she needs to shut up about Imelda Marcos and her shoes.

 

Point taken.

From my perspective calm conversation may not light the much needed fire under the ass of those who most deserve it but less than civil, forceful "persuasion" has the tendency to backfire as it feeds the propaganda mills to create a distorted image of any protest movement to enable utilizing the propagandized masses in effecting cultural censorship on those whose dissidence would be characterized as terrorism or otherwise unpatriotic and would find their time grappling with precision ignorance wielded by those whose rights they are attempting to protect.

I prefer planting seeds and exercising patience. At this stage of the game a meaningful turn around would have a limited effect on my economic destiny- the impermanence of which (from a spiritual perspective) mitigates this in my mind.... which makes the reward not valuable enough for me to risk politically isolating myself over.

Happiness has proven itself not to be determined by a dollar amount or a base level accumulation of assets/possessions and I'm only willing to battle to a certain degree to fight for something that most people clearly don't care enough about to fight for themselves. As for credible information- it's out there for anyone willing to find it. Until people become willing to comprehend what the truth is there won't be any amount of persuasion, shouting, pleading, begging, rock throwing, or what-have-you that will coax them into seeing.

It's a frustrating quandary.

 

You're saying the point yourself.
"Don't care enough" "Unpatriotic" "terrorism"

In order for any seed to grow it must be planted in fertile ground.
I am sorry but for ground to be fertile you need to use shit.
The more sterile the ground the more shit you need to make it hold fruit.
The public is sterile today that it will take mountains of shit to change it.

Today this is the scenario. You speak calmly and try to explain and the
person you talk to suddenly jumps up and say's "hey channel 9 had
a rerun of Dancing with Stars."

So you persist and perhaps stand infront of the television to block them
seeing it. Now you're unpatriotic. Because "Dancing with Stars" is part of
american culture and by standing infront of the television I'm against
the american way of life.

So you throw a brick in the TV and now you're a terrorist.

If you want to fertilize the dirt you must make it personal.
Yell, scream and treat the dumb dirt like dumb dirt.
Because this way you are neither unpatriotic or terrorist.
You're one angry person screaming at the stupidity of an idiot.

So I will say this.
If anyone believe the lies that the television is telling you about Libya.
Then this person is a dumb stupid moron that should have his ass cheeks
spread open by two steam-shovels. Then have his televison, X-box,
computer, 400lbs wife and kids stuffed into his gaping hole. Using the
urine of fat homeless crack whores for lubrification.

Now learn something stupid fuck yankie doodle dandies.

The National Transitional Council (NTC) of Libya has agreed to give
France 35% of Libya's oil in exchange for France bombing Gaddafi.

The head of the NTC is Mahmoud Jibril and he was a minister in
Gaddafi's gouvernement and complicit in most of the crimes Gaddafi
is accused of. He is also a neoconservative and neoliberal and the
Occident's choice to be the next in power for Lybia.

 

I've really enjoyed your posts in this thread but, my goodness, that is one beastly mouthful of a sentence. I ran out of breath just reading it. Poor Mark is a Francophone, he'll be reading that sentence for hours!

One thing that I feel I must say, kind of complimenting what you have said, is that really it's very important not to make an enemy in our heads when we're discussing things with people. I'm not singling Chronic Tom out but he gave some very good examples of it, basically by concluding that people posting "alternative" news must some arrogant conspiracy nuts trying to impress people with their knowledge while being dumb enough to jump on plenty of bandwagons, even the one that slags off people that jump on bandwagons. He tarred on his own image of midgardsun (and to some extent me) and attacked that image, rather than discussing some of the finer points of the situation. A lot of words were put in a lot of mouths, which is never ever productive and a silly argument ensued. I got a bit sick of the rudeness in the thread, to be honest. Is it so much to ask that people express their opinions and angles in discussions without resorting to calling people ignorant and being assumptious to the point of accusing people of being certain ways without even knowing the people? So yes, no imaginery enemies in heads, we are all people here, we are all willing to learn. And for God's sake, we're all adults, so let's act like it.

We must wonder about the people that we converse with but allow them to fill in the gaps, not use our imaginations to do it. Asking people why they feel this way, what their ultimate concern is over the issue and what their solutions are will give you some sense of that person, allow you to see how they view the situation. Offering productive information to complete the picture they are seeing is far more likely to enlighten them than condemning the views they have. The story of the sun and the wind trying to remove a man's coat comes to mind.

So, back to the topic at hand:

I think I speak for everyone with the "anti US" angle when I say that my concern here is the idea that something good will come of this revolution has already been largely flushed down the crapper. The Libyans still have aq chance to improve their countries and their lives, yes, but they are now forced to cooperate with the Western powers no matter the outcome, probably leading to less equal conditions inside the country, not that they were that equal anyway. Already the race divide that blurred under Gadhafi has snapped back to violent killings of blacks on the streets. True, Gadhafi is certainly not perfect on the prejudice front but cooperation and development with Africa was one of his main concerns, now that continent will see none of its own money as it will be being payed back to the international banksters that so graciously lent it out to them, like in most of the rest of the world.

And on the subject of killing, of murderous dictators, although the US has quite an oppressive political structure they are not that murderous to their own citizens. But why do they need to be? They have created a society where the citizens are more violent and murderous towards each other than any other country in the world and they do not seem capable of reversing that trend. The US is far more atrocious in its (seemingly intentional) structural violence than Libya was, probably than the majority of countries in the world are, even some 3rd world ones.

I'm not disagreeing with anyone, Chronic Tom and Noxious Gas offer valid points, they are right in reminding us not to indulge our anti-american sentiment to the points of fantasy or falling for the other side's propaganda, I think if we aim to culminate our views rather than conflict them than we will all get a better idea of the situation. Only time will tell which way this will go, some of us are more optimistic than others.

So, now still, one question remains: Where is Gadhafi?

 

Bullshit...

I have no problem with alternative news.

I have a problem with people posting the same links to the same stories multiple times as if it is proof something...

I also have a problem with blatant hypocrisy...

I watch the things being posted here, and see the similarities between all the dictatorships that fall... and see the similarities to the way they try to save themselves.

The best part is that you could actually do a good job of predicting which dictatorships will fall and which will recover based on the way they publicly act. The ones that fall, have consistently been the ones where the leaders decided they could continue to lie and bullshit about making reforms and listening to the people, yes continue on with threats, disappearences, torture and killings.

I also recognize that no matter what the 'real' reasons may be behind it, there are real people, really dying, in order to stand up for themselves...

But here, in the 'bastian of individualism, you aren't supposed to talk about that, because it goes against the US being evil. They don't mean anything, they are just pawns in a giant chess game.

It is as about intelligent as the claims all americans are bloodthirsty savages becuase of the actions of their leaders, or that all of english canada is responsible for 27% of the vote.

Of course... maybe I am just pointing out that some people and their arguments have reached their expiry date.

 

You mean like the average pro-US government in the middle east? I think you should take a look at Saudi Arabia as a good example of an oppressive and brutal regime. Of course, we never hear about how brutal and repressive they are because they're our friends! They treat their people like shit but they sell cheap oil! Probably the only thing that will change in Libya, unfortunately, apart from a downward slope in the standard of living after the initial period of IMF loans has worn off, is the price that the West is getting the oil for.

You're back in your imagination here. NOBODY has said this except YOU. Nobody has expressed the opinion that the Libyan people are pawns or that they shouldn't fight for freedom and be happy with what they had. The thing you need to get is that you came in here putting words in people's mouths which made them defensive and that makes it looks like they're the defending the position you just accused them of having. You have done this with several phrases in this thread, seemingly surmising that those looking at things from different perspectives (I consider my own view quite objective) ALSO think that Libyan people shouldn't fight for their lives.

WTF man? Wake up and read what people write, not what you imagine they're writing.

That's how people react when you put words in their mouths, see?

 

I was going to quote the times that it has been said in this thread that this war is wrong, and its only purpose is the US warmongering, but I realized I would have to quote way too many posts...

Maybe its that you have an amazing ability to separate issues in your mind...

Me, I look over there and I see people getting the chance to build a home that isn't controlled by a dictator. I see people dying on both sides of a civil war, war that is being supplied by outside forces on both sides. I see people standing up for what they believe in.

Anyone who is sitting in a democratically based society, with the freedom to speak out and dissent, who is trying to paint this as nothing but a grand scheme of the US (or any other country) for any reason is a hypocrite. If they are also the type of person who bemoans the fact that nobody here ever stands up and takes actions, then they are also a coward.

He was a dictator... he has been in power for four decades, his family would have taken over the dictatorship if war didn't happen.

There does not need to be a single other reason that this happened...

The timing of it is most definitely motivated by other factors from outside, such as his attack on the monetary standard and trying to bring africa up... but it doesn't change the fact that the people over there that are fighting and dying, are doing so because he is a dictator, and they want to live in as free of a society as those in this thread that are saying this is just an unjust US war.

 

Why would you even quote that? That means that those people believe it is a ploy by the US/banksters/NATO and they do not support people killing each other for interests way above their heads. IT DOES NOT MEAN that they feel that Libyan people shouldn't fight for feedom, I don't know why you can't see that.

In any situation like this, IMO, anyone who is shooting at someone else because they were ordered to/given a gun and encouraged to IS a pawn!

I don't really need to seperate any issues with you because you can't seem to discuss any, again you are going for snide little almost personal remarks, stop it! I'm not trying to put you down or poo-poo your views. I'm not trying to fight with you or provoke you, I just want you to stop being abusive and presumptious and get off your high horse.

You've called people ignorant here, yet you're expressing the most ignorant views of all when you sound so sure of yourself condemning the ignorance of others whilst not offering any facts or links to give any backing to what you've said, in other words you're spouting pure opinion and opinion ain't worth shit. Really, I wish you'd discuss the facts, not the people.

So, what do they believe in? Cheap oil for the West? Owing huge sums in national debt that will never be able to be repaid? Killing all the blacks in the country? No, they don't believe in these things. They are fighting for their freedom and for a higher standard of life. The concerns from people here arise because it is unlikely they will get what they are fighting for. What is in mind for the new Libya? An Islamic state, by the looks of things. Someone mentioned the tearing down of theocracies but this is not what is going on. The autocracies, yes, seem to be going but theocracies are being installed. Iran is a good example. They said "Not East, not West, Islamic republic."

It would do you well to remember that during Gadhafi's most brutal periods, he was firmly supported by the West, US included. Europe loved him and even let him invade Chad. Why was their no rebellion with outside support during these harsher times? Why has it only come now, when Libya sticks out like a sore thumb because of its wealth and the anti-western sentiment?

To use a similar example: The US didn't seem to mind Saddam Hussein gassing the Kurds until it suited them. You see?

I don't understand the logic of either of those statements. You seem to be saying that if we use our right to speak out and dissent then that is bad? You sound like Bill O'Reilly or something in these two sentences.

How did he stay in power so long? Hmmm, I wonder...

OMG I can't believe you said that. Egypt, yes, I can buy them having a revolt by the people for the people but when even the mainstream news has reported the involvement of Western forces earlier than is reasonable I find it hard to believe that this is born of the people.

We want them to live in a free society, too. That's why we're so concerned. There are people over there fighting and dying in support of Gadhafi. There must be, you can't have a war without more than one side. Why is it that the rebels had to roam the land, preceded by NATO bombs, to capture towns and turn them from pro-Gadhafi to rebel occupied? Why didn't the people all just join together against Gadhafi? Why were and are there still people supporting him, fighting for him, repelling the rebels? Why was it ONLY Benghazi at the start? Why didn't Tripoli kick off as soon as Benghazi went, especially when the army had suppsedly left the city to crush the rebel forces in Benghazi? And you do know that a lot of the rebels are not from Libya or have been exiled or left Libya for several years, right?

 

Seriously funny shit man...

Facts have been quoted in this thread multiple times and have been shot down as propaganda, and to prove those statements, propaganda has been used.

You claim to see both sides of it, and then jump immediately back into;

Do you understand the words "have a chance"?

As for the rest of your shit about me attacking people and the o'reily references...

You have just made multiple posts about how I should not be speaking my opinion...

Get over yourself.

 

Don't worry about me I can take it.

It's a shame you're not Québécois or French Canadien.
Because reading some of Chronic Tom's messages he personifies
an anglophone Canadian stereotype. I lack the vocabulary to
explain the stereotype exactly but trust me he is one. Practically
a perfect poster for the reason Québec wants to separate from
Canada. You could take a Québecois that really wants to stay province
in Canada and after a 2 minute conversation with someone like
Chronic Tom, they would be praying to God for a black death disease to
wipe out english speaking Canada.

It is the reason I commonly refer to him as "Goof." No other english word
comes as close to what we use to describe this type of person. So I
advise you to accept anything he says on any subject with an eye
that he is only trying to make it look like he is intelligent and well informed

In Québec we have had the patriot's rebellion and the F.L.Q.
In the end Freedom can not be won for you by someone else.
It has to wanted and won directly by the people that will benefit from it.
We know this in Québec from long difficulties of our own. This is a
lesson we have learned very hardly.

NATO/OTAN can not and should not help if the objective was to truly
get rid of a dictator. The people have to want it and be willing to fight
and die for it themselfs. All these nations that are part of NATO/OTAN are
trading their "help" for future Libya riches. The rebels are only trading
one dictator for group of dictators who are not even Libyans. Because
they are not Libyans they will care nothing at all for the people of
that nation.

 

Here you go again... Ignore what I claim about myself, will you? Let's talk about the topic now.

I recently spoke to a Libyan from Tripoli who owns an electronics shop near me. He supports the rebellion against Gadhafi. His exact words were "ANYONE would be better than that mad dog!" So I do understand what these civilians up in arms want to fight for. I asked him questions and presented him with some of the facts I had gathered, some even from the mainstream media and he dismissed most of them and gave me his picture of what Libya is really like. Do you really think people in a revolution would ask for help in the form of "bomb our cities"? There has been little or no humanitarian aid or democratic process on the side of the rebellion, despite quite a few fundamental changes to the country already undergone and several more lined up. It will be interesting to see what the people of Libya inherit from their civil war... If it ever ends...

I'm sorry, like I said what you are saying is causing people to assume a defensive roll. Really, I am trying to help you by showing you how it is to be belittled in the place of having you viewpoints considered. Notice that I was still trying to consider your viewpoints. I've asked you plenty of questions, I didn't mean them as rhetorical, like your one about the mods Ha sorry, I couldn't resist!

I'm sorry. Don't misunderstand me though, a lot of your opinions I could see more sense in if you would give me some backing, paint a bigger picture for me.

As to the issue of the Libyan people's freedom... It's a tough one... Like you said, we can dissent and speak freely here on the internet but Libya also has internet, surely they could do the same? The rebellion itself relies on dissent, I would wager that Libya's tribal structure had a fine history of it, though maybe not the same calibre.

Recently I watched a documentary about Hugo Chavez that demonstarted 2 sides of a media battle of state television against private media. It was called "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" so I had to watch it, I like a bit of Gil Scott Heron. It pained me to learn that communications had been attacked in Libya, bombing runs included. The objective, it seems, was to take state television off the air. A viable objective only because the rebel leaders are given a platform on private media which has already formed the desired image of Gadhafi in our minds. Remember what I said about making enemies in our heads?

I wonder if he will be killed, tried by Jury and killed or some miraculous third option?

 

Said the choirboy to the pope!

I know what you mean, we'd say he comes across as very "American". In England we say "American" in a certain tone of voice to describe a great deal of cultural changes and attitudes. Americanism has had its hay-day and it's not cute anymore, it's terrifying. To see entire cultures swallowed by a glutinous glob of lowest common denominator intellectualism and morbid sickness and death from peace, war and everything in between. They don't know what it's like, not being American. Looking from the outside and thinking "What in the name of all that's good and holy are you doing?"

I should add that some would say that Britain is in fact the origin of this imperialist attitude. America is a more concentrated model of the sort of society the Brits managed to produce, designed at the hands of empire before them.

I normally think he is, I'm surprised he hasn't offered more insight.

 

No, but I do think they would ask for help in not being destroyed by overwhelming military force without thinking it through.

In fact, I think it would be safe to say that they would have been happiest if nobody was killed and nothing was destroyed. I will even say that on Gaddafi's behalf as well.

But each side wanted to win, and to do so, people will be killed and things will be destroyed. It happens in every civil war... if it didn't it wouldn't be called 'war'.

What I have been objecting to (in relation to the topic), is the idea that somehow the only thing that matters is that the US (or others) are pulling the strings. Of course countries around the world are trying to pull strings and get things the way they want, thats what they do...

It doesn't change the fact that libyan people have taken up arms (regardless of where those arms came from), to change the system they have been living under for 4 decades.

Libyan people... I repeat that, because that is at the heart of this all... some keep saying things such as, "can't be done by others", as if those libyans aren't the ones standing up and getting shot (and shooting others doing the same on the other side)...

They did, except when the regime decided they shouldn't.

Read the history of Gaddafi and how one of the first things he did was try to destroy the tribal structure of libyan society. Breaking up areas of opposing tribes into new social structures controlled by committees he set up and so on.

Trade unions, the right to strike, political parties and free press were all abolished.

People who spoke out, even those in positions of power, were arrested admist claims of attempted coups, and following each, Gaddafi's powerbase was strengthened by replacing them with ardent supporters.

This part confuses me... When it started, Gaddafi did his best to cut off internet access to the people. The state 'media' was nothing but loudspeakers for him. It wasn't in anyway shape or form a 'free press' not since 1972. In no way was bombing it in anyway responsible for cutting people off from communications.

A lot of this confuses me... either people standing up for themselves is good, which when it comes to doing so with arms, means people will die and things will be destroyed, or it's bad, and they should just bend over and take whats offered and be happy... I don't see how there is supposed to be another option unless its a coup such as gaddafi staged in which case it is literally replacing one bad choice with another.

He will be killed... even if he is 'tried' by a jury, he will still be killed.

I think its just really a matter of how it will happen.

That is not me saying I think that should be done, I am saying that is what I think WILL be done.

 

The fact presented to us with regards to this is that outside involvement had been going on for a time before the rebellion for all that happened to be possible. Things were already arranged when it began and the weapon procurement by the rebels was mystifying... Of course if they were going to be destroyed then how many of them would have to be killed? What's the population of Benghazi? If these people have risen up in arms against their dictator then he would have to fight them all, wouldn't he?

I think that's the way everyone feels deep down.

True, but again this leads me to think that there must be considerable support for Gadhafi, granted it has been steadily worn down a bit now. The fact is that there are still people fighting in support of him.

That's the thing, there are those that have done that but also those that haven't. Of course, also people that have taken up arms for their regime.

 

Let's try to keep this from getting personal please. Instigating by referring to specific members here is not allowed. Please be civil... you all have much to contribute.

Peace