The point is I get the gist of it. What I am asking you is to put it in the real world and tell me who the real players are and what they have said and done. Mr Bush going to Iraq...is a poor explanation for a so-called "Holy War." It is childishly simplistic. Come on, don't be lazy. Explain yourself.
christianity is a middle eastern religion based on the old testament. the old testament is linked with the new testament. far right wing christians as seen in "jesus camp" hark back to the OT for spirituality, they believe that by helping and supporting israel that they will bring on the messianic period.. the far right wing in israel believe in greater in israel, having never been to israel you will probably think that this some conspiratorial nonsense - you would be wrong, go there and learn first hand what they believe in or you can read about it, though its always better to hear it firsthand. now.............. time for you start your journey, start reading, start travelling
I know this. You're not saying anything you have not said before. If this is it. Good grief. Why does it filter into most of your posts? You are talking about individuals within the general populace. How on earth does this filter down to governments and the current war in Iraq and Afghanistan? You speak like governments are purposely having a Holy war. If you are always just being disingenuous, then it really should stop.
I hear ya. It is just like getting blood out of a stone with, guy. He could have answered the question a long time ago. Instead - it seems - he avoids the question then vanishes. I think I have my answer now anyway.
republicans: come on, it's not that bad. it's not like we're actually hurting anyone. plus, we need this for national security. dems: you gotta be kidding me. i don't care how mild of a torture method it is, it's still torture. we don't do that. i dunno, i was surprised when obama was talking about prosecution. america has historically done something pretty shitty every time we get scared. japanese internment. cold war blacklisting. now the patriot act and waterboarding. personally, i don't know what my view on prosecution is, but i'm glad we stopped the torture*. *i really don't even like using this word here. i'd call them more "immoral overaggressive interrogation tactics." torture brings to mind mel gibson's death scene in braveheart. the stuff the cia was doing was more like what the protagonist in "the punisher" did to his inside guy (made him think he was burning, when it was just eggs frying).
there's a bit of bias in that quote it looks like. but anyway, i think there's a definite distinction between too much carbonation in your sinuses and having your balls dipped in sulfuric acid. i'm not saying the shit done isn't wrong and unpleasant, just...not that bad.
this rarely happens on the politics forum let he who is without sin cast the first stone..... as it were
Torture solves nothing, finds nothing. You torture someone they will tell you whatever you want to hear. Torture is inhumane, cruel, and just wrong. Stop the torture, close down Guantanamo Bay, fire and put to trial the people who allowed and ordered the torture. These are war crimes.
This is easy to say if we think that torture is ineffective and only provides false intelligence, because then it is not a moral issue. But what if Bush is right. He claims in his memoirs that numerous terrorist attacks were averted in the US and the UK due to information extracted by the use of waterboarding on suspects. He would say that wouldn’t he. However it is known that soon after the 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed was captured by the US a flood of intelligence data was received by M16 from the CIA which led to the unravelling of a plot to fly planes into Canary Wharf (UK's equivalent of the WTC) and packed terminals at Heathrow Airport, 9/11 style. These plots were disrupted as a direct result of this info. A UK security correspondent has confirmed this. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11715577 (check the side column) More recently information from Saudi intelligence led to the discovery of bombs on planes in Dubai and East Midlands (UK) airports, masked as printer cartridges, averting disaster. Note how vital the intel was: the initial search response to the tip-off failed to reveal the bombs and they passed the aircraft as "clear". But security personnel were then advised by the intel providers to look again. It is possible, probably likely, that the intel was obtained under torture. Even if most intel extracted under torture is false, if it contains fragments of truth that leads to this kind of protection then it makes torture a practical approach and we need to revisit the morality of it. Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush (in order of influence on policy) approved waterboarding under medical supervision in circumstances where there is credible evidence that a terrorist attack is imminent and there is reasonable certainty that the subject has knowledge of it. Mohammed was waterboarded 184 times before ceding the vital information that prevented planes being crashed into a packed airport terminal -probably. The problem with outlawing torture even under this circumstance is that it comes out of a moral blind spot. It fails to see that awarding full human rights to terror suspects is a zero-sum game: In order to award that right you take away the right of thousands to receive maximum possible protection from being, killed, maimed, bereaved, long term suffering. (Have any of you dealt with the long terms agonies of victims of major crush injuries and burns, -children). Depriving those thousands of the right to protection from that is immoral. The government and its security services have a moral duty to protect its citizens. It also has a moral duty to protect terror suspects from torture. Its a straight moral conflict. To allow one side to always override the other on blind principle is wrong. I have strongly disagreed with Cheney on everything and consider him evil. But on this I now wonder whether he was right.
rice, cheney and bush and rumsfeld should all be prosecuted and given appropriate prison sentences... period...
