to the left/liberal readers of this forum

but that's just the point u haven't questioned anything here, nor challenged one single claim that i've made with anything other than mere supposition, and a couple of ad hominem retorts. no evidence, no sources, no references, no logical thought out argument. nothing. it's been, what, 10 days since this thread began and only jim has really mounted any kind of half-way decent case for the official theory side.

i can understand your difficulty tho'. it's a ridiculous case to have to argue. consider, the official theorists believe:

• that cave people in afghanistan organised the whole thing (and that's not unbelievable)

• by some freak of events a hijacked jet managed to defeat the world's best air defence systems, and then three more hijacked jets did the very same thing all on the same morning (and that's not suspicious)

• by some freak of physics a leviathan building made of iron and steel collapsed in its footprint principally because of a fire: the first time in history that it's ever happened, and then two more bulidings did the same thing on the same day in the same place (and that's not utterly impossible).

difficult to argue a case so absurd, and so singularly lacking in truth, logic or believability.

the people who advocate the official story are the true conspiracy theorists.

 

connect these dots...

ask yourself who are the people who support the official story?

well, the us military report a 'freedom walk' set for september 11, at the pentagon, to celebrate the war in iraq and commemorate the thousands of ppl who died on 9/11 is

if u r wondering why u never hear any of the truth about 9/11 on your tv news it's because the popular media are complicit in perpetrating the mass fantasy that is the official story. that's why the 'freedom march' is supported by the washington post and other washington 'all news' tv and radio stations. in other words, 'all news' = 'all official conspiracy theory' and nothing but offical conspiracy theory.

but maybe the biggest beneficiary of the september 11 attacks and the 'war on terrorism' is lockheed martin, another gleeful supporter of the official story. they don't care that it's totally absurd. they're in it strictly for the billions they make in war profiteering.

if u don't know lockheed martin go here http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/ and start connecting the dots.

 

The LEFT must remain focused on the larger social dialectic, and not waste their energy in a side-show like the 9/11 cat-fight.

Regardless of which 9/11 arguement proves to be The Truth, The LEFT dosen't need yet one more singular incident like The Pentagon Papers, Watergate or 9/11 to prove their case.

Whether 9/11 was a radical Middle Eastern reaction to Capitalist Imperialism, or was a conspiracy of the Elite Capitalists themselves, does nothing to alter The LEFT's contention that Capitalism promotes mass symptoms of schizophrenic alienation within society.

9/11 doesn't add up to a hill of beans when billions of people suffer every day from the effects of Capitalist alienation.

It makes no difference to The LEFT who pulled the trigger, only the fact that Capitalism will always motivate SOMEONE to pull some trigger.

Why should The LEFT put its weight behind one side or the other in the, who commited 9/11, cat-fight?

Why, when neither side of that narrow little fight has the focus to add or detract from the course of our dialectical momentum.

 

Airliners have been routinely hijacked for the past 45yrs, and no air defence system has ever shot one down before!

Most hijackings end up with passangers and crew eventually walking away unharmed.

How was anyone to predict that the same usual result wouldn't happen on 9/11 as long as everyone kept a cool head.

Watch the films!

These leviathan buildings of iron and steel began collapsing right at the points of the two jets' impact.

Are you suggesting that the conspiracy coordinated the points of impact of (2) 400 mile and hour commercial jets with the precise location of pre-set and professionally shaped demolition charges!?!

And are you suggesting that these demolition charges not only remained in-tact and in-place, but also refussed to ignite during impact and the in-gulfing flames for 45mins.

 

.

i don't believe that 9/11 is at all comparable to a singular incident like the 'pentagon papers' or 'watergate'.

in each case, pp and w/gate, the initial crime that sparked resultant events was committed by an individual (ellsberg or the thieves who broke into ellsberg's psychiatrist, depending on who u view as the villain) and a group of individuals (the watergate burglars) acting at the behest of a president (nixon). 9/11 was probably committed by a cabal of neo-conservative maniacs at the behest of a more powerful corporate grouping. also the murderous attacks themselves seem to have been carried out personally by members of this cabal: myers, rumsfeld and cheney principally. nixon didn't actually break into any buildings himself as far as we know.

in neither case, pp and watergate, did the state murder innocent citizens in the pursuit of its illegal activities and illegal agenda.

while the pp and watergate came about b/c of an unpopular war in vietnam neither incident caused the war to start. the afghanistan invasion and the war on terrorism were declared directly as a result of 9/11.

neither incident caused the constitution and the bill of rights to be shredded as 9/11 has (in fact the opposite thing happened and for a while the system loosened up a little as a result of nixon's excesses). neither event was the catalyst to create a police state.

nor do I believe that september 11 is merely a side-show.

in many fundamental ways what occurred on september 11 2001 is unlike any other event in america's history. we have seen the state in developing countries and in pre-democratic times turn against their citizenry with such murderous force and then blame it on a convenient enemy, usually to give the state a pretext to go to war or to create a police state but such a tactic in a modern liberal-democratic state on such a scale is disturbingly unique. 9/11 is the watershed for a completely new kind of politics. for instance: the state is no longer beholden to the rule of law and probably feels it can kill its citizens on a mass scale again, and probably will - a second 9/11 (no doubt as a justification for escalating war or keeping a tighter grip on power); any thoughts of 'reform from within' or progressive gradualism are, in the light of this, quite untenable: how can the left negotiate with the ruling class and its corrupted system if that system does not recognise the rule of law or basic human rights (ie, it won’t murder its citizens en masse as a mode of advancing its agenda or destroying opposition)? the constitution which once acted as a safeguard against tyrannical excesses has been gutted post-9/11, and the congress has completely surrendered to the executive as a result of the fear created by the attacks, and given away any powers it might have had to restrain the administration and keep its dictatorial and warmongering impulses in check; the judiciary, likewise, has fallen lockstep into the march towards a fascist state.

to my way of thinking this hardly seems like a sideshow.

also, another signifcant element in all of this is the cover up. the cover-up to 9/11 has brought the manufacture of consent to a completely new level. the power of the mass media to shape people's dreams and perceptions is well understood. the power of the media to manufacture an entire consensus reality out of lies and illusions is less understood. but this is what we have seen happen with september 11: the tight and maniacal control of all information concerning the attacks, and in cases where images got out, the bizarre manipulation of these images to prove black is white and war is peace. to see the raw images of a huge skyscraper brought down in its own shadow in free fall time - like a piece of perfect choreography - thence pulverised into huge mounds of unrecognisable dust highly suggests that such a collapse was a staged affair: a controlled demolition and probably nuclear but hardly likely the result of an aeroplane crashing into the top stories and causing contained fires. and such an unlikely explanation is even more preposterous when the performance is repeated on the other big tower and then again on building 7, which suffered no plane crash at all just a fire. the official story defies all human experience of iron and steel and fire yet such images of the demise of the wtc are repeated often and with no mention of the absurdity of what it purports to represent nor, in this age of total control, any fear of contradiction. in the days of bernstein and woodward the capitalist press could at least be relied on to investigate certain illegal aspects of an administration it didn’t like: as yet we have seen no such breaking of the ranks of total media loyalty to bush and the mass fantasy that is the official story.

while it’s true that 9/11 does not encompass the entire social dialectic - more ppl, for example, died as a result of the illegal iraqi invasion than died on september 11 - it could well be the instrument by which the american ppl are awakened from their current state of hypnosis and by which many americans are radicalised to overthrow the political and economic systems of global capitalism before it destroys us.

 

no evidence exists whatsoever that the ppl who hijacked the planes or masterminded the whole 9/11 thing were islamic terrorists. much evidence exists that the alleged 19 hijackers were actually cia assets. evidence also exists, and some of it has been presented on this thread, that the american state itself carried out this terrorist atrocity, and not islamicist radicals.

therefore the identity of the alleged perpetrators of the 9/11 atrocity matters to both muslim ppl, who have been framed in this matter, and global capitalism, which has framed them. in other words, 'who pulled the trigger' matters enormously as it goes to the heart of the west's geo-political strategy.

in search of someone or something to demonise the ruling elites have shown their preference time and time again for using non-white and non-judaeo/christian demons. since the end of the cold war it has become the turn of radical islamists - and by extension if only subliminally stated, islamic ppl in general - to fulfill the necessary role of hated 'enemy'. it will be china's turn to play demon soon in the years to come. a hated enemy is required if war without end is to be justified.

who pulled the trigger on september 11 also matters b/c muslim countries such as iran and iraq (that got blamed quite wrongly for september 11) hold much of the world's remaining supplies of oil which america wants and we saw how 9/11 was one of the phoney pretexts america used to invade.

besides promoting mass alienation capitalism also promotes racism and war. the current war on terrorism which came about b/c of the events of september 11 is, imo, premised on racism. the vast majority of those who must die in this bogus war are muslim children aged under 15 who are of non-anglo/saxon ethnicity. that's simply because this demographic constitute the majority in developing islamic countries that have been invaded. since when did children under 15 threaten the new american project or mastermind, finance and participate in acts of terrorism? i believe, sad as it is to say this, that b/c they are ppl of dark skin who come from a different culture, practice a different religion and speak another language we in the west can be trusted not to care. like so many others, in fact about 85% of the world's population who suffer enormously because of the global capitalist economy through poverty, hunger, disease and war, their deaths somehow 'don't matter' whether they are children or adults, men or women, soldiers or non-combatants. on this racist principle the vastly unjust and cruel distribution of global wealth and resources depends, of which 9/11 and its consequences are but another instance.

it seems to me on principles of social justice, human rights and anti-racism, the left should be in no doubt which side it supports.

 

James,


If The LEFT puts its weight behind a conspiracy theory that turns out to be total bullshit, then The LEFT would be marginalized as fruitcakes for decades.

Remember, The LEFT is the only future hope that billions of human beings have, and to jepordize that hope for an un-proven and highly controvertial theory would be irresponsable of The LEFT.

Moreover, the view that 9/11 has radically changed the social dynamic in America is based on the romantic idealized fiction that America is the Home of the Brave and the Land of the Free.

9/11 changed nothing! America has always been and continues to be a freedom-fearing nature-hating manifestation spread from the Old World to contaminate and pollute the New World.

We have been living in a Hierarchical police-state for the last 10,000yrs.

Like hysterical women, we who came from the Old World continue to seek effeminate security not freedom.

We are latent homosexual slaves to our anal-retentive Old World Civilization.

9/11 is an insignificant symptom of our Old World mental disease.

 

i understand that point of view, m6m. and i realise that for many the risks seem too great but the risks of staying passive seem, to me, even greater. here's how i look at it: before i changed my opinion about who was responsible for september 11 i subscribed to the official view and by doing that i was endorsing a conspiracy theory too, a real mother of a conspiracy theory in fact, that, when i looked into it closely, turned out to be, of course, total and absolute bullshit.

as writers like david ray griffin and michael ruppert continue to research and publicise the truth movement's case the sceptical view will become more and more acceptable. and none of what griffin or ruppert say is actually unproven: they present evidence which establishes a prima facie case of collusion and criminality against the bush administration. the only thing that is unproven and controversial here is the official conspiracy theory: that cave ppl in afghanistan orchestrated the greatest peace time assault on a military superpower using stanley blades and false passports. first they defeat the best air defence systems on the planet not once but four times, then they proceed to abolish the law of physics by bringing down several huge skyscrapers of reinforced steel with two aeroplane rams and a few contained fires. when u think of it like that it's ridiculous, isn't it? but that's the offcial theory we're being asked to swallow.

i mean the left, or certain elements of it, can choose to swallow it if they like, or be overly cautious and non-commital but the momentum is certainly with the 9/11 truth movement not against it. i see where ed asner has come out strongly in support of 9/11 truth. we're going to see alot more of that happening from now on. if the left fail to respond to something as important to the american ppl as this then they will become even more marginalised than they already are when the truth eventually prevails, as it will.

i don't think 9/11 truth has broken through the thick haze of tv and celebrity news yet to be q honest with you. but it has changed the political climate enormously and like i was saying be4 it should be seen in the context of the grander geo-political strategy of which 9/11 is a part.

i'm not arguing that america was the home of the brave be4 9/11, btw, but neither was it a full-on police state without a bill of rights and with a (dubiously) elected monarch who could declare wars by proclamation only. in this regard 9/11 is the watershed.

i think you're right in this regard. it hasn't changed that dimension of the american way of life, but it will don't worry. this is what it's all about: preserving the gas guzzling, throw away junk culture on which consumer capitalism depends. we can only go on for so long treating our natural environment as a rubbish tip and gobbling up all the earth's resources as if there are no tomorrows. but the truth is the resources will run out, oil and gas i'm thinking here, if they haven't already started to, and the natural world will hit back at us, ferociously i expect, and that's what we're seeing now with the florida hurricanes and the australian drought. the ruling powers are not ignorant to these things and i think they have a plan. and it's not a very nice plan. 9/11 is part of that plan which is why, in my view, it's important to resist their official conspiracy theory. we must oppose their greedy, murderous plans for a world's future predicated on war and greed and instigate our own plan based on peace and social justice.

i'm not. there's nothing the slightest bit latent about me my dear.

 

[/QUOTE]9/11 is an insignificant symptom of our Old World mental disease.[/QUOTE]
Hate to hear what youd have to say about the importance of the death of just ONE person:-S ...

 

if u would like to see more discussion about september 11 and more questions raised about the official fairy story of events then u'll be interested in this on c-span tonight and friday night:

C-SPAN to broadcast the entirety of the McKinney congressional Briefing on 9/11

Tune in to C-SPAN Wednesday and Friday!
Forward this email and be sure to thank C-SPAN!

Wednesday, August 31
8:00 pm to 11:30 pm

Friday, September 2
8:00 pm to 1:00 am

It is broken into two parts (see below):

The two-part, nine-hour Congressional briefing 9/11 CitizensWatch co-found
Kyle Hence lobbied for and his partner John Judge helped to organize with
Rep. Cynthia McKinney concering remaining issues about 9/11 and the
Commission's report and recommendation will now air on the main C-SPAN
channel at the same times and dates, not on C-SPAN2, which means it will
reach a wider audience.

C-SPAN channel is already airing a repeat of the recent series of forums by the 9/11 Public Discourse Project (PDP), a non-profit group created by
members and staff of the 9/11 Commission to push for implementation of
their recommendations. These various PDP panels will also air nightly at
8:00 pm, so those following them will then see an alternative view of the
historical framework and flawed conclusions and recommendations of the
official version. Hope you can watch or tape the two-part series on August
31 and September 2.

For full details on these see: www.c-span.org and click the "TV Schedules"
link at the top right of the lead page, just above the flashing ad for
C-SPAN pod-casting.