To live or die for Dixie!

Unlimited information includes unlimited misinformation. Minds need to be trained to tell the difference.

 

There is no way to have logic debates though with someone who won't accept logic or even argue with you period. There's only 2 things to do with a troll, ignore it or it troll the troll. Nothing will make him even debate his side aside from calling us "dimwits who voted for Barry O"(which hey buddy, I didn't)

Mainly though it's like the same thing when I argue with bigcityhillbillie and his asinine Jewish conspiracy plots, and neutral reader who might be browsing I can't let be drawn into the same asinine logic(re: lack of logic) that drew these poor people into it to begin with. It's a cycle that must be broken.

 

Yes. This is the key. Unfortunately, I don't think that an internet forum is a powerful enough tool to accomplish this. An educational institution is needed, in most cases.

Yes, it is the undecided readers who benefit most from debates. Let both sides take their best shots, and let's all hope that the more intelligent readers can figure out whose position is strongest.

Often, the best way to defeat a weak debating position is to let them talk as much as they want.

 

The best way to break such a cycle is not to engage in it.

 

Generalizing and casting aspertions on people of any region or nation for that matter only causes mistrust and anger. The south has put out some of the greatest literary figures of this country - Tennessee Williams, William Faulkner, Eugora Welty, Mark Twain, Harper Lee and on and on. Or music - Johnny Cash, Allman Bros., Doobie Brothers, Goose Creek, Charlie Daniels, Leonard Skynard and on and on. I take great pride in my southern heritage.

The civil war was just something that had to happen - to shake a few things out in this country. As I said before, I don't think slavery was THE factor - only one.

This is a regional of extremes - Intelligence, Ignorance - Rich, Poor - Liberal, Conservative - Love and Hate. My upbringing and predisposition is toward liberal, live and let live and look for the best for the best in everyone. If you look for the worst - that's what you'll find. If you look for the best - that's what you will find.

 

Alright to be more civil, let's go back about 13 pages, you never really answered the argument OP on how exactly states have a right to secede from the union, and how slavery wasn't at the main point of the problem that caused the civil war.

 

Here are several arguments for the right to secede.

The Declaration of Independence did not proclaim the existence of one new nation but rather of thirteen independent and sovereign states. If you look it up in the dictionary you will find that the word state is actually synonymous with country. When the Constitution was written each of these states acted in its own sovereign capacity to decide whether or not to join the union. None of them had to. Indeed, George Washington had already been sworn in as president and the first congress was already in session before Rhode Island decided to join. The Constitution specifically gives some powers to the federal government and explicitly reserves all other powers to the states. Based on all this it could reasonably be argued that the states still possessed the sovereign power to withdraw from a union they had entered voluntarily. The Southern states put this theory to the test by attempting to secede. The political reason for their secession was to protect the institution of slavery which they saw as threatened by the new Republican party.
The South felt the need to leave the Union not only because they could, but also because the Federal Government was becoming the strong force that we fought England to get rid of.

New Englanders had contemplated secession at the Hartford Convention. While it was obviously the position of the Union that the Union could not legally be dissolved, its fair to say that the South had at least some basis to say that they could leave the Union. The concept of a 'state' was much more important in the 18th and 19th Centuries.

As far as the logistics of leaving the Union, the Southern States felt that the original Constitution had been ratified by State conventions, and doing the reverse by a convention legally justified. As far as philosophical justification, the South claimed that they were not the revolutionaries, but the North and their abolition of slavery doctrine was revolutionary. The South also felt that their honor had been trampled on by Northern States, because they wouldn't accept the Southern claim that slavery was property and that not only was it legitimate in slave states, but that any slave owner had a right to travel or move to a free state or unorganized territory and keep their slaves. Those in the South who weren't personally interested in slavery often defended it strongly against Northern claims. And even some Southerners who felt that slavery was evil (as Robert E. Lee was quoted as saying) felt compelled to go with their state.

 

On the flip side though, our country was founded under the articles of confederation, which specifically stated a perpetual union. The constitution was not creating a new country but revamping the political structure of a current one, mainly by strengthening the power of the federal government in the power it has over states, it must be assumed this "perpetual union" was to keep existing.

Remember while New England did in fact debate it, they never actually tried it. People still debate it in various sections of the country today, but it doesn't make it anymore legal.

A federal republic can not exist is the states are free to hold the federal government hostage by threat of leaving the union, it defeats the purpose of a federation. Remember before the articles of confederation there was no American nation, just 13 different colonies with their own institutions, each state voluntarily gave up it's right to full sovereignty when it signed the articles. The federal government actually came into being and operations before North Carolina and Rhode Island ratified the constitution, which as they were part of it at the time would indicate that like all amendments they were overruled by majority of states that they had already signed up for a union with.

But I think beyond the possible legal aspects, the main point is the concept of federalism. States can't have the right to seceded without the consent of the federal government, or the government would be held hostage constantly anytime a state didn't agree with anything, a federation just can not work with the states having more powers then the nation. As was the problem with the articles, congress needed a unanimous vote to pass anything, the threat from 1 state deadlocked the whole country. If a state feels as if it's rights are being threatened the supreme court was specifically set up as a separate branch of government to decide on such matters.

For the record many historians point to the fact that the weaker nature of the federal government in the Confederate States constitution helped lead to it's downfall as it had problems getting states to work together to give money to it's government, or having a unified military. Though giving the president the line item veto that could be overridden my 2/3 congress in it wasn't a bad idea

 

I think federalism is the problem. I believe the states should have more power than the federal government. What makes this country work is people on opposite ends of the political spectrum arguing without fear of being hung.
I do not dislike you as a person, but you and I hold very different ideals, morals and values. I am Roman Catholic. My first obligation is to my God, then my state, then my country. I am conservative, not liberal in the least. I apologize for calling you lazy, but you cannot label southerners who believe in God, home education, and the right of the state over the federal government "stupid".

 

Well I'm Roman catholic too, or least raised so. In fact the north east is heavily Roman catholic from the large amount of Italian and Irish heritage here, god doesn't have to equal conservatism. Remember a nation can not exist if it's constituent parts have more power then the nation itself does, other nations have tried this, including ourselves, and it's never worked. There's too much infighting for it to work. Otherwise we might as well just dissolve the union and just create a commonwealth of economic and military cooperation.

 

sarah palin.

 

the ruins of windsor...i love them. gives me sort of an eerie feeling to be there

 

:ack2:
uke:

Been there. I didn't recognize the place at first.

 

Sarah Palin is a good woman in my book. My wife loves her as well.

 

Issued by the Southern Tourism Bureau to All Visiting Northerners and Northeastern Urbanites:

1) Don't order filet mignon or pasta primavera at Waffle House. It's just a diner. They serve breakfast 24 hours a day. Let them cook something they know. If you confuse them, they'll kickyour ass.

2) Don't laugh at our Southern names (Merleen, Bodie, Ovine, LutherRay, Tammy Lynn, Darla Beth, Inez, Billy Joe, Sissy, Clovis,etc.). Or we will just HAVE to kick your ass.

3) Don't order a bottle of pop or a can of soda. Down here it's called Coke. Nobody gives a flying damn whether it's Pepsi, RC, Dr. Pepper, 7-Up or whatever -- it's still just a Coke. Accept it. Doing otherwise can lead to an ass kicking.

4) We know our heritage. Most of us are more literate than you e.g., Welty, Williams, Faulkner. We are also better educated and generally a lot nicer. Don't refer to us as a bunch of hillbillies, or we'll kick your ass.

5) We have plenty of business sense (e.g., Fred Smith of Fed Ex, Turner Broadcasting, MCI WorldCom, MTV, Netscape). Naturally we do, sometimes, have small lapses in judgment e.g., Carter, Edwards, Duke, Barnes, Clinton). We don't care if you think we are dumb. We are not dumb enough to let someone move to our state in order to run for the Senate. If someone tried to do that, we would kick their ass.

6) Don't laugh at our Civil War monuments. If Lee had listened to Longstreet and flanked Meade at Gettysburg instead of sending Pickett up the middle, you'd be paying taxes to Richmond instead of Washington. If you visit Stone Mountain and complain about the carving, we'll kick your ass.

7) We are fully aware of how high the humidity is, so shut the hell up. Just spend your money and get the hell out of here, or we'll kick your ass.

8) Don't order wheat toast at Cracker Barrel. Everyone will instantly know that you're a Yankee. Eat your biscuits like God intended -- with gravy. And don't put sugar on your grits, or we'll kick your ass.

9) Don't fake a Southern accent. This will incite a riot, and you will get your ass kicked.

10) Don't talk about how much better things are at home because we know better. Many of us have visited Northern shit holes like Detroit, Chicago, and DC, and we have the scars to prove it. If you don't like it here, Delta is ready when you are. Move your ass on home before it gets kicked.

11) Yes, we know how to speak proper English. We talk this way because we don't want to sound like you. We don't care if you don't understand what we are saying. All other Southerners understand what we are saying, and that's all that matters. Now, go away and leave us alone, or we'll kick your ass.

12) Don't complain that the South is dirty and polluted. None of OUR lakes or rivers have caught fire recently. If you whine about OUR scenic beauty, we'll kick your ass all the way back to Boston Harbor.

13) Don't ridicule our Southern manners. We say sir and ma'am. We hold doors open for others. We offer our seats to old folks because such things are expected of civilized people. Behave yourselves around our sweet little gray-haired grandmothers or they'll kick some manners into your ass just like they did ours.

14) So you think we're quaint or losers because most of us live in the countryside? That's because we have enough sense not to live in filthy, smelly, crime-infested cesspools like New York or Newark. Make fun of our fresh air, and we'll kick your ass.

15) Last, but not least, DON'T DARE come down here and tell us how to cook barbecue. This will get your ass shot (right after it is kicked). You're lucky we let you snowbirds come down here at all. Criticize our barbeque, and you will go home in a pine box -- minus your ass.

 

Is it the heat and humidity down there that makes you so angry?atriot:

 

Almost a foot of snow on the ground here in Dixie.

 

and much much more on the ground up north...

the one thing the south has going for it is the heat.

 

Actually no the storm got stuck just south of long island, so not a flurry here in new england

 

A little advice to southerners: when you call us yankees, don't expect us to get offended. We realize that it's an insult from your point of view, but to us the term yankee merely means we're from the north. Call us damn yankees and expect to be laughed at.