Also I should mention that the divinity of the Emperor is much older than either Confucius or Lao Tzu. It grew out of ancestor worship. In my basement I have two ancestral paintings---The Qing dynasty Emperor and Empress (I'll have to double check the dynasty---but I'll take a picture of them and stick them on my gallery, if anyone wants to see them). They were hung in a shrine somewhere in China, and referred to as Ancestors because many Chinese, especially peasants, did not have the means to set up their own shrines, or have their own graveyards, etc. The Emperor and Empress were the ancestors of everyone, and thus people could go to a shrine and honor the ancestral paintings, in a way of honouring their own ancestors. We also see Imperial Divinity in Japanese Shinto, which today, is probably the least institutional of any religion. The Japanese Emperor was a direct descendant of the Shinto Gods. (I write more about that on my posts about Shinto). But more siginificantly, the Imperial families of both countries evolved from Shamans. The Chinese Emperor Yu would change into a bear, while his wife drummed. Tradition claims that he did superhuman things in this form. If I remember correctly, at the end of his reign, he turned into a dragon and flew to the heavens. These are all typical of how ancient stories of shamans get tangled up in a cuture's mythos. (Also, the dragon is one of the serpent aspects connected to the axis mundi, flying to the heaven is a common element of Shamanistic spirit journeys, and the use of the drum for journeying is especially Ural-Altaic in tradition). All subsequent Emperors are incarnations of Emperor Yu as the Dragon God. So we can't just blame Confucianism for the institutionalization of Taoism (though I don't deny it played its part). Another culprit is the start of agriculture, and the rise of agricultural centers---this represented the dawn of civilization and the rise of the institution. It was through this that the hunter-gatherer spirituality that lasted from the paleolithic, began to develop into the institution of religion. This is because it was at this stage that the group philosophy became neccessary for survival of the sprouting communities. This was a change from the hunter-gatherer socieities where the philosophy was more individual-based. Subjective spirituality became objectivistic religion. This was the start of what lead to the disenchantment of the universe---in the West, in Communist China, in so called modern socieites, etc. (I write more about that in my posts on Shinto as well).
That is very interesting Zombiewolf----the saber tooth tiger and the cave bear did not survive man, Nor did the mammoth, a ruminant, though perhaps dangerous in it's own right. I will have to think over your points some more too. As I mention in some of my posts, I am working on a book that deals with the dawn of man's primal language and primal spirituality, and what I think gives a clue to how man's spiritual thought evolved from a common point based on these linguistic clues. The one word root that is most universal in almost all languages is the root that refers to the vulva. I trace this not by just a single root word, but by a constellation of vocabulary and concepts that make up the archetypes surrounding this one word. Because the language is so prevalent and universal, it validates another theory that before the invention of writing, man's thought process was based on those aspects of the mind and emotion that today we label as feminine----feeling, intuition, subjectivism, logic, etc. (For example, check out the book, The Alphabet and the Goddess). I think this fits Jung's concept of early man as using a psyche that was strongly influenced by the unconscious----the archetypes, and collective uconscious, which is really what we experience as intuition. The invention and advancement of writing forced man to think in linear terms---from a to b to c, as opposed to a and c and b (or b and c and a, etc). This trained man's mind to think in terms we label as the masculine side: objectivism, analytical, empirical, etc. It seems to me that while the feminine aspects point more to the Jungian unconscious, the masculine side points more to the conscious mind. Indeed Jung felt that man's conscious mind developed more as he advanced in knowledge and culture. The ego is that part of the psyche that filters not only the constant stimulus and noise from our environment, but also the emotions, thoughts, and memories that reside in our unconscious. The ego determines what is allowed into conscious perception. The masculine aspects must therefore limit the flow of the unconscious through the ego (or we can also say increases the strength or size of the ego). I therefore think the traditions of the shaman come from a period when man was more subjective, and tuned into his unconscious mind----the magic of the shaman is his ability to manipulate the archetypes of his unconscious. (That is my Jungian explanation. Through things I have witnessed during my travels, and my own experiments in trying to induce Shamanic states of consciousness, etc, and despite my attempts to remain logical and objective, I have seen numerous things that defy logic, and break down the laws of empirical objectivity, or even how we see reality. So for me, there is definitely more to it than manipulation of archetypes within the mind). This feminine nature is also the feminine spirit of the valley that Lao Tzu writes about. In the realm of the hunter gatherers, it is easy to think that it was man that predominantly hunted, while women did the gathering---it would make sense as they needed to attend to the children as well. It also makes sense that sooner or later women would accidentally drop seeds and notice that they sprout. I could see farming develop at first as a means to enhance the gathering process---if the seeds were planted nearby by the women---they would not have to go as far to gather, and they didn't have to worry about not finding what they needed. However this allowed for plants to become a more significant food source, especially when game became scarce due to seasonal factors, over-hunting, etc. Around this same time, the Aurochs (ancestor to the ox and cow) was imported from Europe into the Middle east and Africa. Once again, this provided a ready source of meat just as planting had done for berries, seeds, and other plant foods. This could all result in a natural revolution from nomadic hunter gathering to a stationary agricultural community. The Great Mother, naturally inspired by the Mother archetype---empowered by the experience of man as infant, and these memories imprinted on the collective unconscious, soon gave way to the cultic figure of the Mother Goddess----as the rise of villages required collective thinking for survival---and the need for the institution. And this need was to ensure fertility---the magic and power of the womb. Eventually the male god rose in power, and the power of the feminine began to diminish even more. The seeds for this downfall of the mother were sewn in the birth of agriculture (i.e. the rise of the institution). But the power of the male rose further as writing developed. In a recent post in the Shinto thread, I talked about some of this too. The language pointing to the rise of the male sky god---for example, the Ural-Altaic rise of tan, ten, or tien, came later in man's spiritual development. Tien was not only heaven, but was the sky god itself. The t~ roots representing the masculine (for example, the Old Mongollian for penis was tibhe, this evolved into the modern Mongollian, chiv, the same word in Japanese is Chinpo, pronounced chimpo (a child's word, like peepee is chinchin)---notice the connection with tien and chin). But the feminine root begins with k~ (The old Chinese word for the feminine aspect is kun (which comes directly from the original root of the feminine) referring to the feminine aspect of the universe. This is used in Feng Sui, Astrology, the I-Ching, etc.). Since Japanese is the furthest East of the Ural-Altaic languages, it makes sense that it would include many older roots and language forms than the Ural-Altaic langages closer to the Ural-Altaic homeland (the languages closer to the source undergo more diversification and change, hence the furthest out could be older). In Japanese the native word for heaven is ama, not Tien or Tan (though ten is Japanese adopted from Chinese). But ama is related to middle to old Korean Hanar (k~ devolves into g~ and h~, so think of Kanar in Old or proto Korean, and Kama as a root for heaven in Japanese). Hanar also became the Korean word for sun, ha, and the same Japanese word, hi. This suggests a trail for the Japanese word for god, Kami, to be an older feminine root, that still fits the Ural-Altaic concept of the sky-god as it relates in the more recent masculine root, tien. Here is something to support that---the Ural-Altaic sky god is commonly associated with not only the sky, but the sun. Japanese Shinto too has traditions that point to ancient sun worship (though the sun is a Goddess in Shinto). Another Ural-Altaic group, the Yakut (or Sakha) of Siberia, have the traditional Ural-Altaic sky god, Tangara----but the Yakut word for sun is, Kun. On the universal myth of the Garden of Eden, or the Golden Age, I see this as a combination of 1.) the proverbial 'grass is always greener on the other side' sentiment along the lines of the myths of the power of the ancients telling us that it must have been great back then; and 2.) an unconscious desire to return to that time when the unconscious mind had the most power over the psyche---something that is not only buried in the collective unconscious as distant memories from mankind's primal past, but also memories within our own past of the womb, and early days as an infant with our mother. But I must mull over your comments. After all, even chimpanzees go on military raids against other family pods---which are very much like those of the modern military guerilla raid, with all the hand gestures, crouching, etc
BY the way, I was trying to locate some things in my office today and found a book which deals with the origin of Chinese characters----I opened it up and did confirm that the character for heaven is a straight line, like a ceiling that extends outward over man (the lower portion of the character means, man. That is what I thought even though the lower portion of the character is eqivalent to the Chinese character for large). But here is something that I thought was interesting----the origin of the character for King (mandarin, Wang; Cantonese, Wohng) is that the vertical line represents the mediator between, heaven, the top horizontal line; Earth, the lower horizontal line; and man, the middle horizontal line. Thus we can compare this to a common petroglyphic symbol of the vertical line as axis mundi, or world tree, and the three lines of the different worlds of the indigenous universe----lower, middle, and upper worlds. The King is symbolically represented as the axis mundi. This fits right in with Emperor Yu as shaman/emperor/dragon. The rising and falling dragon is clearly the serpent connected with the axis mundi. Considering that the Chinese dragon was also connected to underground water, and when it rose to the sky, it created rain, likewise ties these motifs to the very dynamics needed for the earliest stages of agricultural, and village development around the world. We see this same theme surrounding the serpent from the Middle East, accross Eurasia, Australia, and the Americas. It is the rainbow serpent, the horned serpent, the feather serpent, and so forth. In Kansas there is a petroglyph carved into rock that has the same three horizontal lines. There is a vertical tree that rises up through the lines----it's roots below (or around) the lowest line and the branches rising up accross the highest line. Accross this tree and these lines of the animistic universe----a horned serpent rises up. The Chinese character for King is very old---certainly older than Emperor Yu----and the character for emperor is different still from that of king. But there is obviously a connection between king and emperor. This character could very well point to a very early spiritual structure much like that of the Japanese (and their divine lineage of the imperial line), in which the kings of the earliest communities were shamans---those individuals who literally do move up and down the world tree. I should point out that the very first envoys from China to Japan, during the days of the Yamato Empire----came back to China and reported that the Yamato people were ruled by a Japanese shamaness (Princess Himiko) who they gifted a special seal from the Chinese Emperor. This seal was found at a dig in Nara---Japan's oldest capital. So there is plenty of reason to believe this story from ancient China.
I just recently got a copy of the Tao Te Ching myself. So far it is makin' for some very interesting reading. I converted to Taoism from Christianity only a couple weeks ago and I am studying vigourously to learn what I can. I am a firm believer that the tryad to enlightenment is love, knowledge, and peace. IH
Mountain valley wolf, I get what you're saying, but I think as far as intuition vs.reason, I think reason had tipped the scales long before the advent of written language. I think the invention of the Atlatl, not to mention highly developed edge technology,(knapped projectile points) Illustrates fairly advanced use of logic based on studied observation. That the Clovis point was around so long wasn't because paleo man Or "Clovis man" was slow to innovate, It may just have been the Clovis point size, shape and most importantly weight, was the most efficient for it's purpose and so represented the pinnacle of it's development as a projectile point specifically for the atlatl dart. ( later arrow points show much more variance) We also have plenty of evidence to believe that hunter gatherer had a better diet and far more liesure time. In short I believe paleo man may have had much more rational intelligence than we give credit. Indy Hippy, I'm not sure there is anything to covert to, But Taoist forum can always use more traffic! Looking forward to your input! ZW
Zombiewolf, are you trying to say that women can't invent things???!! (JUST KIDDING! JUST KIDDING! (Couldn't help myself...)). No---and in case anyone gets me wrong---the feminine elements of the mind does not insinuate that this is only how women think. We all have varying degrees of what we label as male and feminine aspect of thought-----anyway... You make some fine points Zombiewolf. Early man was very knowledgeable. They even did trephining---essentially a form of brain surgery as early as the paleolithic. After all, their minds were human too. I think that when we refer to intuition in the human sense, that it is not as mindless and impulsive as the inherited intuition of the animal world (though sometimes I have gotten that impression too from Jung's comments on 'primitive man', and how he sees them). In other words I think we can have intelligence and a certain understanding of logic without having the linear thought methods that writing induces. While primitive man was very innovative at developing the atlatl, aerodynamic spear points, and other amazing things, there were few early cultures that understood the concept of zero, and any higher level of mathematics did not develop until after a writing system evolved. At the very least---it took the advent of agriculture and the institutions before mathematics evolved beyond measuring the cycle of the moon. In fact there are things that point to a keen knowledge of the movement of the stars and sun as well as far back as the paleolithic. SO they were intelligent and very observant of the world around them. Their astronomical concepts are deeply buried in early myths---but here again that points to a understanding that emerges more from the unconscious than the objective train of thought. Another example of the lack of linear thought can be found in the art work that early man left. There is no clear linear sense of beginning and end. Figures are drawn on top of each other in a composition that is almost chaotic. Still a clear theme can be found in this work. And once again harkens to the language of the uconscious---almost Kafkaesque or dream like. I think a good part of that early logic was induced by both the power of the archetype, and the power of reason. Our own dreams try to act out or solve problems at a very high and accurate level even in our modern complex lives, though because it is in the symbolism of the archetype, it is largely misunderstood. Jung and a lot Jungian followers have come accross amazing things in dream research. On the other hand, we can see surprising levels of reason even in animals. Certainly humans would be expected to achieve much higher levels of reason, even if that reason is induced, discovered, or enlightened, by the archetype. Then there is the amazing knowledge of medicine that we find among indigenous people. When you think about it----it would be rediculous to believe that this came about through centuries of people tasting different plants in the jungles and the moors, to see what happens to them. What kills them. Clearly there was a deep relationship with the spirit world, and knowledge was gained from this. There were a lot levels of this type of knowledge---ranging from calling game, to shamanic healing, to divination. In fact it was divination that gave birth to writing. Even if you don't buy into the belief of the spirit world, this has to be accounted for somehow----maybe the power of archetypes and the collective unconscious. Of course none of us were there, so this is all theory, based on the clues left by ancient man. But this is how I see it based on my linguistic research, and other experiences I have had. I don't disagree with you----and I think you do make a good point. But this is the perspective I see it from. I hope this makes sense---I am extremely tired and got to get to bed...
Schizophrenia, Psychedelic plants, the fractal nature of reality, and mans "intent" for pyromancy, plastromancy. I understand some anthropologists have observed that the fractal patterns of cracks reveiled in the oracle bones very closely resembles some of the earliest Chinese characters. The "world tree" may have been one profound pattern of cracks. If those diviners were "tripping" or in an otherwise "shamanistic state" I can understand why they would see some kind of meaning to those weird patterns of cracks. I know when I have taken LSD, I observed in myself, a high degree of suseptability to perceived hidden meanings in things. Many people report that when having a psychedelic experience they feel something profound is about to be reveled to them, but can't quite seem to get it. It is also a dominant trait of schizophrenia. I really don't know what to make of all this, accept to say that we are really weird creatures, apparently living in a really weird world, at a weird time we call "Now". And I do dig weird! I have to go now, I'm busy composing some weird music.... Have a weird day!:cheers2: ZW eace:
Confucianism is of course the ultimate conservative doctrine. The current leaders of China are communist in name only, and Confucianism likely makes a great deal of sense to them. I can't comment on Master Lao. Who could comment on Master Lao? Much talk, much exhaustion.
Yes Zombiewolf, psychedelics were certainly a part of it. And Chinese writing is believed to be inspired by plastromancy----the cracks in the shell---maybe not entirely, but it certainly had its part. Meanwhile the alphabet in the Middle East too had its divinatory start. The Egyptian Hieroglyphics had their start because of the magic of engraving symbols which became names, etc. etc. as far as something profound being revealed in the LSD experience----you should read some of the work of Dr Stanislav Grof----he has had patients and students who have had some pretty profound things happen while under the influence. (Hey-----I dig weird music. One of my toys is a Korg MS 2000 Analog synthesizer----if Lao Tzu would have seen this----he would have rewritten the whole Tao Te Ching The Tao that can be named is not the Tao that can be generated from several oscillators filtered, resonated, manipulated by attack, decay, sustain, and release, and modulated by a series of low-frequency-oscillators with depth, and feedback added in and possibly some white noise. And if he got bored he could pick up my sitar---The Tao that can be named is not the Tao that can be played by a slide on a single string with multiple sympathetic strings vibrating under it...)
