Thumbprint Dose(vs. DMT)

I'm not a stranger to what tasty is saying, been there myself.

But I'm sorry, I have done some pretty big doses, done the "stay high on acid for a week" thing, you've read my TR's, you know I'm no stranger to the "mystical" aspect of psychedelics, but GODDAMN IT why do all these "heads" and "family" have these thumbprint doses that last days or weeks and then it takes months to return to normal, yada, yada, yada when NOTHING in any of the medical, clinical research supports a damn word of it!?
May I direct the reader to the following, the only recorded overdose of LSD-25 and subsequent treatment;

http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=3266

"Although there have been many reports of overdose with D-lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) in humans, little toxicologic data are available. The physiologic effects of LSD in doses greater than 1 mg have not been studied in humans and the lethal dose must be interpolated from animal studies. We performed extensive toxicologic studies on eight people who took large doses of LSD; the results and clinical-toxicologic correlations are reported herein. REPORTS OF CASES On July 29, 1972 four women and four men ranging in age from 19 to 39 years were admitted to the emergency room at San Francisco General Hospital for drug overdose. Following a dinner party, they had "snorted" (inhaled through a straw placed in one nostril) a small amount of cocaine and a quantity of white powder believed to be cocaine. All eight were reported to have snorted at least two "lines" (rows of powder measuring approximately 3 x 4 x 30 mm) of the second substance. Within 5 min they experienced anxiety, restlessness, generalized parasthesias and muscle discomfort, vomiting, and physical collapse. Ten minutes later they were admitted to the emergency room in varying degrees of intoxication (Table 1 and Appendix). Five were comatose when first seen and most were extremely hyperactive with severe visual and auditory hallucinations at some point during their course. Three required endotracheal intubation. and assisted ventilation and three aspirated vomitus. All had sinus tachyeardia, widely dilated and fixed pupils, emesis, flushing, and sweating. Fever developed in four and diarrhea in two. Transient hypertension was present in three patients and no patient had convulsions. All had coagulopathy as manifested by the inability to form firm clots and absence of clot retraction in the blood specimen tubes. Seven had guaiac-positive vomitus and four showed evidence of mild generalized bleeding (microscopic hematuria in two, gross hematuria in two, oozing at venipuncture sites in three and small amounts of blood in the vomitus or stool in four patients). Laboratory data showed normal or negative values (see Appendix) for the following: blood glucose and serum sodium, potassium, and bicarbonate levels, hemoglobin (13.0 to 16.4 gm/dl), platelet Count (186,000 to 458,000/pl), prothrombin time (11.0 to 12.5 sec) and partial thromboplastin time (19.3 to 38.7 see), chest roentgenograms, and electrocardiograms. Results of liver and renal function tests were within normal limits in the three patients studied. Direct examination of the blood clots and results of clot retraction tests on several patients showed friable clots that fell apart easily without dissection, and absence of clot retraction (Fig. 1). Supportive care included respiratory assistance, use of hypothermic blankets, and administration of antibiotics and corticosteroids when indicated. Bleeding was mild and disappeared within 4 to 6 hr. Blood transfusions were unnecessary and all patients recovered completely within 12 hr. All were discharged or left the hospital within 48 hr of admission. No residua were observed in a year of direct follow-up of five patients."

So my problem is why do these "heads" have such fantastic trips of such long duration when right there is a medical breakdown and timeline of what the fuck happens when you take a massive dose of LSD.

Anyone care to explain the discrepancy?
Please don't say it's because the "head" taking a thumbprint dose is taking more hence the longer duration.
We don't know how much in micrograms or milligrams they actually took, but from the physiological stress, I think it's safe to assume that a person consuming an even greater amount would need medical attention.


THAT is why I have problems with some of these stories.
Somewhere I have a link to the original article complete with original medical reports. I'll post it when I find it again, I got over 300 links related to LSD to sort through.

 

'cause they got needlepoint, brah

 

:2thumbsup:

 

^^ what's up with her ? Because of that pickard lab story ?

I was just really wondering about that IV DMT stuff, can one really do that ? wouldn't there be a strong tolerance developping after a while ?

 

Yes, you can.
IV'ing DMT is how it has been done in clinical research

 

Yes and there reasons that its common to hear people say a trip lasted 16, 24 even 36 hrs. Here's my theory. For me I have to make a conscious effort on a trip to keep time co-ordinates. Often if I don't write things down I don't even recall the details like dropping at 6pm or 630pm. And I always have time dilation on trips...
but, how do I, as the tripper, proclaim the the time at which the effects of LSD or whatever, has worn off to the point that we say "ok, stop the clock" ??? I'm probably not the most objective observer at that point in time i'm sure you'd agree. Whether I've tripped twice or 50 times.

Albert Hoffman and others conducting research in a controlled clinical setting are more qualified than I to make that call.

The other night I did a hash brownie/ 2C-e experiment, mixing about 2.5 "doses" of brownie with 20mg of 2Ce along with occasional smoking all night and no alcohol. I ate it around 3pm, I think I might have peaked about 6pm and went to sleep just before 4am, 13 hours later and was still quite high.
But, I have tripped a half dozen times on that same batch of 2Ce, and the few times I've done ONLY 2Ce, I considered myself more or less baseline within 7-8 hours. If you had asked me at 12+ hours in if I was still high and I'd have said yes I was. On 2Ce...? no that was afterglow.
Would I know that if it had been one of my first few trips? Probably not.
I don't however often hear people with moderate to heavy experience with psychedelic tell stories of trips lasting 2-3X longer than the scientific literature.
Within a margin of individual variability that is.

I took that statement not as absolutist but more to emphasize the point that a strong lsd experience doesn't cause the memory loss or black out symptoms that a drug like alcohol produces. The argument that a person could commit a murder or something similar, under the influence of an LSD blackout is near impossible because LSD does not have that effect.
We all know that we don't remember each and every little detail and I didn't read Hoffmans comment as such.

I call BS too but again, it's not necessarily someone BSing on purpose, if that brownie-2Ce trip had been my second I mighta said "ya man 2Ce lasts 13+hrs"
It's only experience that tells me that's not possible in my body.

But that was one of your more polite posts calling someone full of shit haha! :2thumbsup:

You are well read and spoken Weat and there's no reason to doubt your experience, tho I've never had a trip that felt like the real deal to me, peak 6-8 hours in. Not my first, not my last, nor anything inbetween, whether I was certain it was LSD or not. Thats me.
When you say primary effects, do you mean the way most of would describe an lsd experience at plateau? That being the case, the primary effects for me return to near baseline within 6-7 hours, with the after glow lasting anywhere from 6-7 hrs in to ~14 hrs in, depending on when I finally sleep.
And one of the things I've always loved about LSD is what you described as the mouldable state I have after waking up. That can be 20 hrs or more after dropping but that wonderful, amazing day-after-glow isn't 'being under the influnce of LSD' but rather the lingering effects.
And I know you know what I mean. :love:

Doesnt mean N.O. couldn't be a more polite debater But then again he wouldn't be the noxious odor we all smell permeating the threads.... haha

Ya. Nevermind me, read what you can find on her about the actual busts and prosecutions and look at her behavior after the fact, and all "her" neurosoup stuff(shes just a spokesmodel under the NS brand name) and make up your own mind about Kole.

 

A psychedelic experience never truly ends

 

you do realize who you're dealing with, don't you?

seriously though, my bark is worse than my bite........




I've lost too many teeth.

 

Well played Sir.

:grouphug:

 

We are talking really about calculus here.



^ this is the basic peak plasma level graph of virtually every drug. If you just take LIM x -> infinity, the drug content will approach 0, however at any time before infinity, there WILL be a positive amount of drug in your system (theoretically).

You likely still have a molecule (or atom) from the first tylenol you ever took at age 5 or something in your body.

So in an absolute sense, for sure these things just trail off with an infinitely progressing half-life of varying length depending on the drug.

Just wanted to add this tidbit to this discussion about "when does an LSD experience end", which I think can be answered as simply or as profoundly as you require in this moment .

 

I think we're just getting lost in terminology.

By plateau, I was effectively meaning the end of the visual experience, left with only the energetic effect... as in, I was closing myself off to the effects, in essence... so my visual experience wasn't lasting as long as it could have.

Now I don't reach that state til after one or two nights sleep, which is rather nice... I still have the whole room floating/wobbling... with ideas building up on the surface of objects etc... very fluid reality that can be slightly shaped by ideas, unlike the main height of the experience in which you can trash this reality and create your own.

 

I don't think so, we just need to use the terminology which already exists.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_effects.shtml

There is already a very well established timeline for LSD effects/intoxication based on hundreds of thousands of LSD trips taken by many thousands of people. I seriously doubt your and your friends experiences are as unique as you think or outside the norm.

Regardless of your subjective impressions, LSD does follow a very specific timeline of effects based on your body metabolizing it, just like every other substance humans consume.

Larger doses give greater effects, but the body still metabolizes it at the same rate, as evidenced by the medical report I posted.

 

noxious, you should read up on neural plasticity - the connections in your brain can change over time, even without drug use.

so MAYBE, POSSIBLY, taking a 1000 or 1500 ug dose of LSD could result in some long term changes. doesn't mean you're still tripping though.


i know i've never dosed as high as tasty (or noxious). my strongest trips on L have only come half way between a "very fluid reality that can be shaped by ideas" and an "experience in which you can trash this reality and create your own."

 

Depends how you interpret the after effects vs the main show... I bet not everybody has the same after effects... mine have certainly changed drastically over the course of my experiences.

Just because the body metabolises it at the same rate, doesn't mean the effects or length of effects aren't altered.

A general timeline does not preclude anomalies for individuals who are predisposed to certain types of experience.

I think there is a greater variation than you seemingly want to accept, there are numerous reports of large dose experiences taking a few days to wear off. Subjective impressions should not be ignored, but of course they can be taken with a grain of salt.

 

You mean like after a stroke, or when you repetitively practice something thousands of times (I think it's 10,0000) so that new pathways/connections are created?

Yeah, I'm no stranger to the concept and knowing how neural plasticity works, I'm gonna say no, taking a few high doses of LSD is NOT going to rewire someone's brain.

Long term changes?, sure, changes in outlook and overall concept of "reality" ? sure, but are they the result of actual physical neurological changes, highly doubtful given the degree of real physical work that is involved in creating new neural pathways.

C'mon pork, your smarter than that. :toetap05:

 

I doubt there is as much variation in the real physiological process's, that is what we are talking about, certainly nowhere the degree you are implying. I still hold that the majority of differences are more cognitive differences rather than actual real differences.
Now I have read a few believable reports of thumbprint type doses.

The thing that made them plausible was
1) amount taken--about 1/10 of a gram or less, so ~100 milligrams, I already noted that ~ 300 milligrams was suspected to be lethal.
2) the fact that they got violently ill, loosing gut and bowel and needed to be cared for during the trip.
3) relatively back to normal by the next day with lingering afterglow that can last for a week or so.
But I often wondered if that was actual residual drug effect or more emotional/psychological, probably a combo.
But the main effects still follow the basic timeline.

And yes, of course there are going to be exceptions and anomalies, but tasty as a physics guy, you know that we still have to deal with actual numbers vs probabilities, correct?

There is the possibility that some people experience extended effects and all, but that is not the norm and most people's experience will follow the prescribed course.

 

Exactly... and yet you were rejecting all claims of such extended activity as "bullshit"... lol

 

There is a difference between a residual "feeling" and still experiencing major effects as you are reporting, and as stated, the major effects still follow a prescribed timeline.


Again, please consult some real clinical research, not just personal trip reports.
I am basing my opinions on 60 years of research and decades of personal experimentation with psychedelics.

And yes, I thought very much as you do now when I had abundant access to LSD and was dosing weekly or more.

But I have also had 25 years+ to continue to read, learn and reflect on my experiences/usage at that time, as well as go on additional psychedelic journeys, although not nearly as frequently.

What I see is you are understandably "caught up" in the awe and wonder of psychedelics and are running with it in every conceivable direction.

Did it myself and have seen it here more than a few times, perfectly normal.

But why not balance it by arming yourself with all the scientific research and facts about the substance as well? Such knowledge won't detract from the experience, actually it improves it to know the why's and wherefore's of your experience.

I mention/post actual research data and you seem like "yeah, but the other night I was tripping for 24 hours" seemingly completely disregarding any verifiable data presented.

Don't argue with me, reconcile the discrepancies between your experiences and those of countless thousands of others.

 

I like that, good observation. It's like asking 10 people to estimate how tall the 6' tall guy is, you'll get 9 different answers from 10 different perspectives.

Wtf else are we going to do on the psy threads for entertainment if we cant harass you? Have a civil discussion? Fuck that

 

:toetap05:

Me thinks you've been hanging around with Hunter a little too much.