Thumbprint Dose(vs. DMT)

DMT gets you to a higher plane of existence (or dimension) significantly easier than LSD... but you don't stay there long.

You can reach the same heights with LSD, but it takes practise and determination - plus plenty of experience.

It's taken me a good 30+ trips including a good few med-high doses to get to the 7th dimension on LSD.

DMT turbo boosts you to the 9th dimension on your first breakthrough.

Some people can get there easier though.

 

Back to the thumbprint dose, I tried to find some trip reports on it, and from everything I know about DMT, it sounds like it goes above beyond the effect of DMT.

Could someone explain to me what the saturation level is? I have an idea, but I'm not sure if I'm understanding it right.

I think it was Hoffman who had a theory that LSD would always last the same duration despite the dose, but of course their medical research didn't involve such a ridiculously high dose! I'm hearing it can take 3-4 days to sense your body again, about a week to be able to function normally (go back to work, etc) and months on end to really lose the effect. It's suppose to be so life changing that you aren't exactly the same when you come back, not in a bad why, but you don't ever really give up what you experienced. I know many people who have smoked DMT, and despite their incredible experience, their life is no different now than it was before

 

From a pharmalogical standpoint, saturation level is the maximum level (affinity) with which a drug and/or it's metabolites can bind to a specific receptor site. However In the LSD literature, I have read Saturation level refer to a maximum dose (if I recall it was 400-500 ugs for the particular study I was reading about) at which no more LSD would provide a stronger effect. I think this usage of the term in the latter instance has sort of caused confusion in discussions of this topic in regards to a common LSD saturation level, because the author who used it in this latter context was referring to a very select population that appeared to be resistant to LSD's effects. I'm not sure if he gave different saturation levels for other participants but doses around that level sometimes get brought up when saturation level discussion is brought up.

LSD has a wide ranging pharmalogical profile, most it's hallucinogenic effects have been attributed to activity at serotonin 5ht receptor sites. I don't have any sources but I'd speculate the 5ht receptors get saturated at some point and much of the effects that would separate a thumbprint dose from more common high doses like around a strip would primarily be the effect it has on other neurotransmitters: dopamine, norepinephrine, glutamate, etc. and perhaps some indirect (de)activation of specific sites that aren't normally involved with LSD metabolism.

Well shit if this is the criteria for a life changing experience, maybe I should value my couple hundred milligram railed MDPV binge a bit more. You could take a few hundred milligrams of that and get some of those effects and it'd be a helluva lot less expensive than a thumbprint.

 

I don't know that much about neurochemistry, but do we know how long the receptor is actually thinking it's getting serotonin when really it's getting the similar LSD? Perhaps you reach saturation, but over time maybe the receptors become open again to receive more LSD. Perhaps your brain interprets the first time you reach saturation differently than the next times in the same trip. Maybe it has to do with how many LSD molecules there are in line for each receptor if that makes any sense. The fact that LSD is coming and going so regularly might make the brain react differently.

This theory is based on the personal assumption that LSD molecules might not stay bound to the receptors very long. This could be completely misguided, especially by the fact that I am very baked.

 

Some of what you bring up I don't really have a response for as I'm not aware of an answer and some of it I'm not sure I really am following. LSD half life is established at a few hours and nearly all the LSD is eliminated from within the body within 24 hours. Now considering that we haven't really done much human studies with LSD in the past 50 years and the measurements techniques have improved in that time, that information is probably tenative. Assuming that information were correct though and assuming the anecdotal information of the thumbprint doses lasting a few days are accurate, then it'd leave me to believe that pretty much all effects beyond a day are pretty much due to fallout of the neurotransmitter and receptor sites being rerouted and altered.

I would say the primary way LSD causes different effects is by effecting different neurotransmitters sites within different regions of the brain. Pretty consistent with psychoactive drugs. So as an example a sertonergic 5hta2 receptor pathway located near the visual cortex may be responsible for hallucinations while a 5hta2 receptor pathway in the somatasensory cortex will alter touch. The 'waiting in line' idea could perhaps play a small role but I think its more due to widespread communication between different parts of the brain, which would explain why when you go into a different room on LSD, the trip may take a sudden, dramatic shift in effects.

I think this is a good part of the theory and essentially why I suggested that other neurotransmitters are more involved with thumbprints that normally wouldn't in the hundreds of micrograms range of LSD trips.

 

If I remember correctly, after about 70 minutes there is no LSD detectable in the brain.

So it does whatever it does and sets what ever into motion and then is dissipated?

 

That's incorrect. From Erowid..

 

thanks for the correction.

 

yall are too funny. i have done both thumbprint doses and many breakthroughs on DMT. raw LSD is the best of the best. it is perfect! when you start breaking it down into vials it degrades a little. then into paper degrades more. taking raw crystal is its purest form. no paper or liquid will ever do what raw can do. i was babysat for 5 days. if it wasnt for my family i would have went to jail. not everyone should eat raw

 

GDF bitches!! haha

 

LSD - My Problem Child ©1980 by McGraw-Hill
Published by McGraw-Hill Book Company
ISBN 0-07-029325-2
http://www.psychedelic-library.org/child.htm

Ya we like to fun around here :sunny:

It's just that there is a difference between perpetuating ignorance (and passing it off as your wisdom) and just funnin with each other.

Just come as you are bud
-

 

interesting sig pic, Voyage. What I notice that is a bit alarming but not surprising is how drastically the water level decreased in the bay/Co. river.

Oh and yeah I wonder how so many folks can take LSD and have it do things and last so much longer than all the science about it reports.

 

Voyage, afraid that quote is based on incorrect information.

There are many who report LSD lasting longer than twelve hours and I've experienced it myself.

I've just been reading Ram Dass' Be Here Now and he reports having redosed regularly with ever increasing amounts and staying "up" for weeks on end with a group. In the end they were swigging from a bottle of liquid as their tolerance was so high it didn't matter. When they stopped, it took them a few days to come down.

You can also learn to integrate other abilities into you normal waking consciousness, or in other words, raise your vibrational state.

That comment also mentions "remembering everything" is a supposed function of LSD... Completely wrong. I wish it were true as I've seen some amazing things I would like to recall that fade soon after a trip.

Quite a few people have used LSD to manifest permanent changes in themselves. I've made some changes to myself, all wonderfully positive. My guide sees reality in a more pure form of translucent energy.

 

based on incorrect information????? from Albert Hoffman???
The guy who first synthesized it and was probably one of if not THE foremost expert on LSD-25????

So you trust anecdotal reports from drug users such as yourself over clinical tests and trials that were conducted multitudes of times by experts in the field???? LOL.

Sorry Tasty, but I fear you have fallen into the "LSD magic trap" where you are beginning to ascribe intentions, motives, personality to a molecule.

You're quote about Ram Dass is irrelevant considering it says they REDOSED repeatedly in ever increasing amounts actually confirms the former position about LSD duration rather than the yours.

In my experience with psychedelics spanning over 3 decades, LSD has always lasted ~12 hours with another 3-6 hours of waves of normalcy and psychedelia coming and going, but the main show is always ~12 hours.

Memory loss or blacking out is NOT a normal effect from LSD-25. Every time I hear someone say they "blacked out" and can't remember what they did on LSD I call "BULLSHIT!"

What you are talking about is a completely different phenomena known as "state bound knowledge" and occurs with a multitude of altered states of awareness, drug induced or naturally induced via meditation, biofeedback, etc.
It is a very well known and confirmed phenomena and is very prominent in psychedelic experiences, but it is NOT the same as amnesia.

I'm thinking you need to expand your knowledge base concerning psychedelics and temper your experiences with some factual knowledge as well.
Trust me, you will ultimately get much, much more out of your psychedelic experiences when you lose the "magical thinking" and accept that the content of your experiences is sourced from within YOU, not anywhere else.

You present yourself as well educated and well read, but posts like these make me wonder........

 

Poor choice of words on my behalf, I was posting quickly from phone and didn't feel like writing an essay... just getting a quick message out

"Incomplete" would have been a better choice...

The experience of many is not to be ignored simply because they were not conducted in a lab environment... labs aren't always the most conducive environments to transformative experiences now, are they? As you're a bit more shielded in that type of environment, you are likely to close yourself off to a few things or interpret things in certain ways.

I'm not shrugging off his research as I had seemed to in my wording of that previous post... only remarking that it's only going to represent a very small portion of the psychedelic experience. Just as mine is only a very small part of the psychedelic experience too... every being in existence will have their own individualised experience under the effects of these substances.

When I first started taking LSD, I would plateau after maybe 6-8 hours when the primary experience would practically end, with the exception of extra energy that would keep me awake for a while.

As I've continued taking it and opening myself up to more possibilities within the experience, it's been raising my natural state to a state closer to that of the experience (slowly of course)... as that's been happening, the experiences have lasted for longer times.

For my last trip, I would say the primary effects lasted 14-16 hours and reality was still somewhat mouldable when waking up the following morning... and yes, I'm certain it was LSD.

So I completely believe that people taking very large doses will take days to "fully" come down... if they even come all the way back down to their pre-experience base line at all... I find every experience raises the energetic state of my consciousness a little bit compared to how it was prior to the experience, I'm able to see more, I'm able to bring back more, my dreams are more vivid and lucid... along with other things.

It also depends how you label the "primary experience"... for me, there are consistently different elements to every trip.

There's the build up to the peak, where you're coming up into the experience and connecting with various elements / noticing more within yourself, a point where reality begins to dissolve around you in your bubble of experience. Then to the point where you have the ability to create brand new realities around you, dissolve into non-standard reality and build up what you want around you (what some term as the point where you're able to pop into the shared consciousness/astral planes... where you are briefly able to experience what it means to be enlightenened). Then later on when that level of experience is fading, the come down lasts longer and longer.

It's this come down especially that has increased significantly, where I have thoughts bubbling around on the area I'm in... where the walls are still very much moving and you can play with the fractals / shapes / etc... last time I was building upside-down mountains on the ceiling 16 hours after dropping and it was still there when I woke and for the rest of that day.

Everyone will have their own experience of course and I seem to be a little unusual in how I interpret these stages... although my interpretations have been backed by the experience of others.

We all have our own experience and every one of them will be different... trying to replicate the same experience in many different people in separate experiences is a bit redundant... we are not the same iterations of consciousness, even if we may be linked in more ways than most people realise.

I can't be sure exactly which level of state Ram Dass was referring to, but I'm guessing he was talking to one of the higher states, given his keen-ness in attempting to maintain that state.



Redosing isn't irrelevant, considering the quote posted states:

Extra doses are not ineffective... that IS incorrect information.

They are however, LESS effective - which of course is worth noting.

But yes, the average length of an LSD experience, almost independent of dose, is 12 hours.

I maintain a higher dose does last a bit longer than a lower dose, although the different isn't great.

It's mainly that post-primary-experience mouldable bubble around you that lasts longer... not the "main show". I'm guessing that's the bit that lasts for days.

But then different people react in different ways... so I won't disbelieve people who say they were in that higher state for a longer period of time... many people are able to reach that state without the need for any substance. If someone is more disposed to that state of being, then they will likely stay there for longer... or if their body isn't as good as breaking down the chemical, perhaps that could help them maintain the experience for a longer period of time.

Just because it isn't a normal or common reaction, does not mean it's impossible.

There is a place for many different types of research in this field, the only particularly important factor in my opinion is that the surroundings are safe for the experiencer.



As for memory loss... I find it comes from a place where I've experienced too much for my brain to process it all. Getting into that space is a wonderful experience... but I find I only retain a small percentage of it... snapshots of the bits I really want to remember and ideas rather than content.

If you have an idetic memory, I will admit - I'm jealous. Selective/limited memory is a seemingly "normal" human state at this stage in our development, so it would be unusual for that not to propagate into the LSD experience.

Total memory loss is hopefully unusual... but my partner quite often comes back with only feelings, rather than memories of the content of the trip.

As time is skewed... I find it rather difficult to come out of the experience with a time-line like you could out of a normal day. Even a full itinerary of what I did can be awkward, I know there is information from the experience lost - which can be a little frustrating when you see something incredible.



Of course the experiences are sourced from within each and every one of us... the statement "we are one" is surprisingly accurate. Perhaps you may benefit from going into an experience with the idea that there is more outside of you, despite the duality of inside/outside being different than you may expect.

The observer has a direct interaction with every object that's observed, we each have our own reality that's brought together in this shared experience.

"Magical thinking" vs. extrapolations of commonly accepting scientific theory... please don't make assumptions based on a few statements.

This one experience/world, albeit an important experience, is only a tiny drop in the ocean of existence... through transformative experiences... meditation, dreams, psychedelics, etc... you are able to experience a small part of what all possibility or infinity truly means.

While much can be manifestations of your own creation, it's silly to think that nothing exists as some form of truth outside of the experience. There are definitely elements within there that are not direct creations of what you are now, but contributions from others and/or previous iterations of yourself are certainly able to add to the experiences.



Posts like these are manifestations of how I'm learning to interpret things I've never been taught or able to read... no book will ever temper a psyhedelic experience. You can get a vague idea, but no-one can know the experience until they have it.

The world needs more new ideas and new interpretations of old ideas.

Interpretations are constantly evolving and my opinions of things I've experienced so far may change again in the future - I won't know until they change.

One of the benefits of the psychedelic experience are how it showed me I truly know bugger-all in the context of what's at large... whereas previously I considered myself a bit of a know-it-all... oops.

My experience is just as relevant as yours and other reports need to be taken in the context of how they are written, where they've been experienced, previous thoughts of the experiencer, environment, along with many other things... something that's practically impossible. It does not mean that individual experiences that are slightly different from the accepted norm are wrong or lies. Although yes, some may be.

Applying a norm to a psychedelic experience seems a little redundant, don't you think... especially when you realise everyone in this universe is living in a form of a shared psychedelic holographic dream of an experience based on probabilities and the illusions of different states of matter.

 

Without quoting your entire post, I will address one underlying theme in what I posted and also what you posted.

You mentioned a few times that "every being in existence will have their own individualized experience under the effects of these substances."

Yes and no.
If we are talking about the subjective experience, then yes, the experience will be unique to that individual considering the source material comes from one's thoughts and memories.

If we are talking purely somatic effects; BP, temp, pupillary dilation, DURATION, etc,etc, then no, the somatic effects are generally the same for everyone.

Of course if someone takes a huge dose the effects will take a little longer to wear off, but not days. You need to understand and make that distinction.

"The experience of many is not to be ignored simply because they were not conducted in a lab environment... labs aren't always the most conducive environments to transformative experiences now, are they? As you're a bit more shielded in that type of environment, you are likely to close yourself off to a few things or interpret things in certain ways.

I'm not shrugging off his research as I had seemed to in my wording of that previous post... only remarking that it's only going to represent a very small portion of the psychedelic experience."

The above really has me wondering just how much you have read and researched about LSD. Quite simply your statements make a few assumptions about the clinical testing that are not wholly accurate and suggest you are not familiar with the massive amounts of research that was done with LSD from 1940-1966. Believe me they covered anything and everything you are contemplating.

Saying Hoffman's research represents a "very small portion of the psychedelic experience".

WTF!
Wow, that just further causes me to question your remarks and knowledge concerning this substance.
Hoffman's research touched on EVERY aspect of the psychedelic experience, physiological, psychological and spiritual as did many, many other researchers of the era.


I don't think you understood about memory loss. Sure your girlfriend may not recall memories of the personal "content", (that is state bound knowledge, look it up) but I'm fairly certain she has relatively clear memories of what went on externally, remembering music listened too, movies watched, conversations, etc;. The major point in the original quote is that LSD does not induce any type of memory loss and a person is not going to kill somebody while on acid and have no memory of it.

"Applying a norm to a psychedelic experience seems a little redundant, don't you think"

I'm not sure what you mean, but I don't think you meant redundant.

But yes, as I already pointed out, LSD-25 is a specific molecule that has a specific course of action with specific predictable PHYSIOLOGICAL effects, so applying a "norm" to it is very appropriate.

As each individual has different memories and experiences, the CONTENT of the experience will be unique, but their body will follow the set pattern of response to LSD-25, and the stages of an LSD experience is part of that. The stages of LSD intoxication have been mapped out like you did for many, many decades and it also follows a very specific set pattern.

Having done the dose-redose-stay tripping for a week thing myself a few times, it really isn't at all like "trippin' just a prolonged mind-fuck and a waste of material.

It's all been considered and done before in the arena of psychedelic research;

Take note of #'s 7-8-9
Top Ten Things To Remember While On LSD

 

So you think all research avenues have been exhausted? That's a little limiting

Just because a common median has been found, does not mean there will not be other events. There's no point writing them off...

Without having witnessed the experience, of course I can't say for certain how long anything specifically lasted... however it cannot be ruled out as a possibility... just a possibility that doesn't occur often.

Infinity can be found within yourself, you do not need to externalise to find it... in fact, if you do - you are looking in the wrong place.

The best transformative experiences are found within.

Dimensional structures are found at 90 degrees to the preceeding dimension... all dimensions exist within the form of each of us.



The experience leads to the possibility to experience the infinite... if all humans dosed once per week for the entirety of their lifetimes... we would still only have a drop in the ocean of experiential reports. So yes, all research done so far only grabs a tiny portion of the experience.

Thankfully physiological effects are generally very similar... but that does not rule out outlying events.

 

In the documentary with krystle cole about the pickard lab ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7qliVpGEk0"]Underground LSD Palace - YouTube ) around 10:35 she talks about IVing DMT and "surf the DMT high". Do you thing it would allow one to have a really long DMT experience ? Making it "more comparable" to a thumbprint trip?

 

Oh jeez...

not that bitch again... fuck. Ok I'll be back laterz guys lol

 

noxious, i'll start by saying that on a continuum from you to tastyweat...i'd be a bit closer to you on this debate.

But...realize that individual biochemistry can differ quite a bit. just like different amounts of alkaloids, even within the same batch of p. cubensis mushrooms...people have differing expression of serotonin receptors in the brain. people can have differing levels of metabolic enzymes too.

also, there's still a lot we don't understand about how psychedelics work. or how the brain works, normally.
HPPD is a complex issue, which can result from LSD use. i wouldn't be surprised if a THUMBPRINT dose lasted for a couple days. how much is "the trip" vs. how much is residual effects?

a personal side note for me - stuff that i'm quite sure is LSD (i suppose it could be another LSx chemical) has given me trips that last ~6-8 hours for the meat of the trip.

don't get me wrong though, i appreciate the vast research that has been done on LSD. and i have to admit that i think you know it better than i do.