thoughts on communism

Anyway, I really do have to go to bed. It's fuckwank a.m. and I have to get up in the morning.

'night.

 

Peasents of old had to hand over the fruits of the labour to their loards, the term is still used as workers can't keep the total value of the fruits of the labour since owners take a chunk even though they added nothing of value, thus the owners are like the loards of old, taking without giving.

Thus your a not a peasent as in poor, but that you can't keep the total value of your labour.

Giving production to the state still won't solve this issue thus to really understand Marxism, one must understand the idea of commons, the idea of society (not owners or even the goverment) owning the means of production.

 

Because the person asking "why", is keenly interested?

Maybe you live in a society where asking why is considered hostile, because you are supposed to act without questioning.

Where's your source?

And what's wrong with state education?

The Communist Manifesto is really not the most interesting marxist work. It is not the "manifesto" of marxists.

You tell me. Who? The aliens from Jupiter?

When does the aliens come in?

You don't seem to understand that marxists have a mind on their own.

The US have fought against British dominance. Then they have supported the British. The US have supported Nazi Germany. Then they've fought against the Nazis. It's all about realpolitik.

False.

Communism does not equal centralization of power. A communist society is a classless society. Little if no centralization of power. Again, if you want to criticize anything at all, you should be know what you are criticizing.

Again, this just show you have no clue what you are criticizing.

According to marxist thought, fascism is the last desperate defense of a capitalist society. Communists fought street battles against the Nazis, before they came to power in Germany. The rich capitalist class however, largely supported the Nazis. It would protect them from the threat of Communism. Why do you think the main enemy of fascism has always been socialists and communists? Why do you think the first Nazi Germany sent to concentration camps, were socialists and communists?


"...Fascism [is] the complete opposite of…Marxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production...." - Benito Mussolini.

You really need to read a book.

 

Cuba, before 1959, was known as "the whorehouse of the Caribbean".

The Soviet Union did not "give up on the idea" per se. There was a coup inside the government after Stalin died, and the revisionists came to power.

Pol Pot was supported by the United States of America, and called the Gang of Four, Mao's successors, "counterrevolutionary".

Then surely, the gather and hunter society, slavery, feudalism, and fascism must also be a part of "human nature", because it has existed, just like capitalism? Slavery still exists in many parts of the world, so surely, slavery must be part of human nature?

Not neccesarily. That is very subjective, and doesn't take into account for example an economic cricis, or sudden changes in society, for example.

Oh, how nice. Rich Americans could plunder a poor island. That's cute!

Nice for the richs. A nightmare for the common people.

Cuba is officially socialist, not communist.

Who cares about the communist manifesto? Many of Marx's older works are considered much more important.

Marxism is also continually evolving. Marxism doesn't end with Marx and Engels. We have new authors, like it or not. Everything from Che Guevara, Mao, to Bob Avakian.

If you've only read the communist manifesto, I'm afraid you have no real understanding of what Marxism is. Even I, who've read a lot of works on Marxism (from Marx to Engels, Lenin to Che etc.), has only just began.

 

Interesting.

What "things" does marxism not take into account?

 

actually I question everything which is why I asked you why ask why...and do you feel a need to "convert" or "educate"me ...I could have said communism is crap which probably would have put you on the defensive,I see you live in europe not communist last time I checked (I could be wrong Im not there) Have you ever lived in a communist regime? or just like the supposed benefits? any day of the week I can walk out my front door and in less than 15min I can find someone who either escaped or risked their life to get out of communist Cuba, they are happy to be out
why on G-Ds green earth would I want to be any part of communism

 

That was interesting. I ask why, and you ask why I ask why.



Well, I ask why because I want to know why you think so-and-so.

No absolutely not. I'm not religious, not here in this world to "convert" anyone. People can't be "educated" in anything, if they themselves don't want to be "educated". I think the best way to learn, is learning what you feel like learning. Forced learning will result in very little, and if a student is forced to learn, and actually learn something, he will most likely forget it very soon. Actually, I think that's a major fault with the education system today. People should be, in my opnion, encouraged, not forced to learn. Those who believe in "forced learning" should be encouraged to learn other techniques. It's all about the students will, and the teacher's honest wish to educate the student in whatever there is to be educated in.

I think that by opposing, or bringing up opposing view, may put most people in a defensive position.

No, Europe is not communist.

Moldova's communist party won a clear victory in 2001, with 50.2 percent of the votes. However, Moldova is not communist.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1190180.stm


Belarus was one of the most prosperous parts of the Soviet Union, and today they still (according to my knowledge) a centralized, public economy, but more than that, I do not know. Belarus is not communist, either.

No, I've been living under capitalist regimes, since I was born.

I do have friends, however, who lived in so-called "communist countries".

Good for them.

Personally, I would be sceptical of what many of them say, for several reasons. I'm sure many of them are honest individuals.

But what was upsetting them?

That blacks and mulattos no longer had to be discriminated? That blacks, mulattos and whites finally could live together as equals?

That everyone now had the chance to write and learn?

That everyone had the right to a job, to free healthcare, no matter their social status in society?



But the fact is that, many of those who escaped, especially the first years, were big business owners. It's natural that they have hateful feelings towards Cuba, because the Cuban government nationalized the big business in the country. The Cuban government actually paid those corporations nationalized money, but because many corporations had manipulated their worth, so that they could pay less taxes: It resulted in that they were paid less than it was actually worth. Many rich people were furious, and they fled the Island. Some of them launched an invasion of Cuba, famously known as the bay of pigs invasion. These men combined, had over 10 000 houses, duzins of sugar mills and factories, and giant areas of land. They were later defeated, and Cuba decided to give them back to the US, in exchange for $53 million dollars in food and medicine. So how come many of these people be so furious? Why do they have to provoke Cuba by their acts of sabotage, bombing, terrorism and invasion? Do they want revenge?


Do they want to go back to Batista times, where the US mafia controlled Cuba? Of course, they lost their power, they are pissed, but many workers and peasants in Cuba were happy with the changes.


But I don't think you've yet answered the question.. Why is "communism crap"?


If what you call communism, is so bad, why do 63 percent of today's Russians believe Lenin had a positive role in Russian history, why do two thirds of Russians say they had a better life in the Soviet Union, than in today's Russia?

Why do 60 percent of Romanians say it was better under socialist Romania?

And what do you think about the situation in Russia, today?

 

Communism is not about a life in a stoneage society where everyone sleeps in the factories. It's not about one-man's rule.

In a communist society, the exploitation of man by man will end. There will not be the worker and the boss, the rich and the poor, the oppressor and the oppressed. You are basically free to do whatever you want, as long as you don't abuse other people, or hurt society. You don't have to worry about financial problems or go to work only because you have to pay your bills, and you no longer have to work on social security, just because no one want to give you a job. No beggars. That belong to capitalism.


In a communist society you can actually develop yourself as an individual, free from the chains that hold us back in today's world. I don't know about you, but I don't like flipping burgers for a shit wage, for a few billionaries who live on my damn work. I'm not going to stand on the side of the fat rich bastards when people actually revolt against landlords and corporate owners, like people do in many countries today, right now. I don't care what you do, but I'm not going to stand on the side of those who are making life a living hell for billions of people around the world, especially in South America, Africa and Asia, but also in the West. In many poor countries, common people are fighting for their lifes. They don't want to be exploited and harrassed any more.

 

Could you point in the worlds Map where that country is?

 

I found it Gilligans Island !!

 

I allways had suspected the Professor to be a communist.

 

First I said I could have said communism is crap I didnt say it was I did say its not for me...the people I have personaly spoken with left because of the lack of FOOD and lack of basic things, as well as feelings of being censored and living in a culture where they did not feel able to speak their mind..and Im not talking about people who left in the late 50`s early sixties..Im talking about more recent..and some were buisness owners and others were not...life is tough in Russia change is tough..Life in the US after the revolution was not easy and for sure there were those who regretted the change. NO government is perfect. I prefer capitalism to communism. I like choice. although I do think that shit is out of control and the refreshing of our system is needed .
"To secure these [inalienable] rights [to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness], governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed... Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Thomas Jefferson: Declaration of Independence, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:429

 

Uh, about everywhere in the world. North America, South America, Africa, Europe, Asia. There are exceptions of course, like Cuba.

 

Che is dead . Mao cousin have a Mcdonald fast food chain in vietnam.

 

But why?

During the cricis in the early 90's, there were some food shortages yes.

The US embargo has forced almost any country and corporation, not to handle with Cuba. If a ship is trading with Cuba, for instance, it is now allowed to reach US dock for at least half a year.

You should remember that Cuba has always been a poor country. It has been a colony for centuries, up until just recently. It isn't smart to compare Cuba with, for example, standards in Switzerland.

Why do you then blame Cuba, who has far less resources than Russia?

Life could be somewhat tough in the Soviet Union, too. But you were guaranteed a house, a car, a job. Your kids weren't sniffing glue and killings themselves. Most people watched television, went to the gym (free), took music lessons (free), and were doing some kind of sports or activity.

It was a safe enviroment, unlike today, where you can't even trust the police. They are corrupt.

There weren't millions of homeless people, like today. World War 2 veterans were not kicked out of their homes because they couldn't afford the rent, like today. Also, although I'm not completely sure, I don't think the population decreased with 1 million per year, like today.

Then why don't you understand that life was tough for a reason, after the Cuban revolution? The US bombed Cuban ships, their food supplies, poisoned their crops, and in the 70s, the US even used biological weapons against the pigs in Cuba. It resulted in that Cuba had to slaughter EVERY pig on the Island. The US has pressured every nation on earth, NOT to trade with Cuba. Cuba has still survived. Oh yes, things can be a little tough once in a while, for example when the cuban exiles fly over Cuba with military aircrafts, wanting to bomb the island. But Cuba has surived, and surived well.

Why would do you support a thug, instead of a person who has just managed to free himself from the chains of the bully?

Communism is not a form of government, neither is capitalism. Why do you support capitalism? What do you think poor peasants in Bolivia think of capitalism?

What do you think the people in Guatemala think of capitalism? They starved, because your corporations wanted to feed of the land of Guatemala. When the people of Guatemala voted for a leader who would raise living standards by nationalizing land, the US overthrowed this democratically elected leader. What do you think the people of Guatemala thought of that?

There's not much choice for the poorest of the poor, is it?

Not much choice for those millions of people working in sweatshops, so that american millionaires can get even more rich?

There are people in Mexico who work 18 hours a day in sweatshops, but when they come home, they can't even use the tap, because they can't afford water. How can you support such a system, that brutalize and de-humanize humans? Don't you care about the life's of other people?

Is exploitation a choice? Is it something the poor people around the world, has chosen?

Half the world's people live on less than $2 a day.

World Bank, "Global Poverty Measures 1987-1998 and Projections for the Future," 1999.

1.2 billion people live on less than $1 per day.

World Bank, "Global Poverty Measures 1987-1998 and Projections for the Future," 1999.


Global Inequality - Inequality between countries

The richest 20% of the world population now receives 150 times the income of the poorest 20%.
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UNDP Human Development Report 1992
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The richest one-fifth of the world:
• Consume 45% of all meat and fish, the poorest fifth 5%.
• Consume 58% of total energy, the poorest fifth less than 4%.
• Have 74% of all telephone lines, the poorest fifth 1.5%.
• Consume 84% of all paper, the poorest fifth 1.1%.
• Own 87% of the world’s vehicle fleet, the poorest fifth less than 1%.​

UNDP Human Development Report 1998​

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The richest 20% of the population now receives 150 times the income of the poorest 20%.
UNDP Human Development Report 1992​

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The bottom line for poverty and incomes: The share of the poorest 20% of the world's people in global income now stands at a miserable 1.1%, down from 1.4% in 1991 and 2.3% in 1960. It continues to shrink. And the ratio of the income of the top 20% to that of the poorest 20% rose from 30 to 1 in 1960, to 61 to 1 in 1991 - and to a startling new high of 78 to 1 in 1994.
UNDP Human Development Report 1997​

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The income gap between the richest fifth of the world's people and the poorest fifth, measured by average national income per head, increased from 30 to one in 1960, to 74 to one in 1997.
Human Development Report, United Nations Development Program, 1999.
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Inequality within countries

Within nations, the income gap has been growing as well. Russia now has the world's greatest inequality, with the richest 20% having 11 times the income of the bottom 20%. Income inequalities have also grown dramatically in China, Indonesia, Thailand, other East and South-East Asian countries, and in the industrialized countries, especially Sweden, Britain, and the United States.
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"The State of the World," Stephen R. Shalom​

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The richest 1 percent of Americans earned as much after taxes as the poorest 100 million; in 1977 the top 1 percent only (!) had as much as the bottom 49 million. The poorest 20 percent are making less today in real terms (adjusting for inflation) than they were in 1977.
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"The State of the World," Stephen R. Shalom, Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
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Food & Hunger
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826 million people remained undernourished in 1996-98
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UN Food and Agriculture Organization - State of Food Insecurity in the World 2000
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Hunger continues to plague an estimated 793 million people around the world, including 31 million in the U.S. Hunger kills. Every day, 24,000 people die from hunger and other preventable causes. Nearly 160 million children are malnourished worldwide.

Oxfam America - Hunger Fact Sheet​

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Almost 800 million people—about one-sixth of the population of the world's developing nations—are malnourished. 200 million of them are children.
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Bread for the World (Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations)
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Health
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880 million people lack access to basic healthcare, and 1.3 billion lack access to safe drinking water. 17 million people die each year from curable diseases, including diarrhea, malaria and tuberculosis. 5 million of these people die due to water contamination.
Oxfam America - Fact Sheet

Each day in the developing world, 30,500 children die from preventable diseases such as diarrhea, acute respiratory infections or malaria. Malnutrition is associated with over half of those deaths.
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Bread for the World (UNICEF, World Health Organization)
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Think about it.

Why do you think shit is out of control, and that "refreshing" the system is needed?

 

The only whore is castro who whores the cuban own beaches to turist and other turist spots were national cubans are not even allowed in.

 

There was no hunger in cuba in the 1950s and cuba was self feed with home grown food. So you can eliminate the embargo bullshit there.

 

I want some of that good acid your taking i dont care how much it cost.

 

This thread makes me laugh. For one, you got these fifteen year old kids arguing that communism is the way to go. FFS you don't know shit about the real world kiddies if you think communism is anything but a viel for a few powerful people to maintain the power and money. Blah blah read marx, engels, blah blah, fuck the pages of their books and take a look at reality.

And as for the comment "I don't wanna flip burgers for shitty pay while some billionaires live off of my work." You act like you're fucking discovering the cure for cancer or something pal. Your work means nothing when you flip burgers. You ever heard of the term 'value?' You may also have heard it called "worth." O I forgot, you're a communist. You sound like a lazy bastard.

You know what the beauty of living in a non-communist society is? When we get sick of flipping burgers and sick of the shitty pay from flipping burgers, we can go do something else, and make more money. Isn't that amazing?

 

I dont blame Cuba I was using real world from my experience example of why communism is not an ideology I subscribe to..also I never said that communism or capitalism were forms of governement although it could be argued that they are basis for a form of government....I dont like centralized state control. which in simple term is the basis of communism. cold hard fact I really dont care what the peasants of boliva think about capitalism. I also think the US should withdraw from everwhere and be more isolationist take care of our problems here at home..Im not going to refute or argue the stats you pulled from various places although I do reserve the right to @ a later time...and I will say I believe everything is a choice. as to why refreshing our (US) system is needed I believe it was corrupted by complaceny.