Thought is independent of time

As with saccadic masking, the mind only perceives the outcomes of its processes. There is no perception of the process and time the process takes and so the concept of time becomes warped. Thought works the same way, the processing of billions of neural signals is not perceived, only the outcome. This is how some thoughts would seem to appear instantaneously.

 

Very much what I feel I experienced :sunny:

That rush of knowledge is incredible, it's such a shame we seemingly can't remember much.

But on the other hand, when the rush came - I didn't feel the need to "remember"... memory was irrelevant because the information was already there.

After this last trip, I managed to link the feeling that I get while experiencing it... a very distinct "I've been here before"... it was most pronounced on my first trip and re-iterated strongly in this last one with a feeling of remembering past lives even.

As a child, I used to get freaked out by the feeling of presences in my bed room when I was trying to sleep... perhaps this made me close off the the stimuli early on.

It does seem like children have a better connection to the higher planes.

My mother tells me, when I was 2 or 3 I described my great grandfather standing in the corner of the room, smiling at us. Apparently I had never seen any pictures of him and it was at the age where it would be very unusual to make something like that up and be so convinced by it.

I can't recall that, unfortunately...

I also used to have flowers talk to me, some shout at me... which I wasn't too fond of.

Then there were my own little moments of infinity... when trying to sleep, I would try to clear everything out of my mind... used to start focusing on my breathing and then not need to anymore. I had these little moments of infinity... because there was nothing there, the time of each moments seemed both infinitely large and infinitely small. It used to bring me a lot of peace and helped me fall asleep, it seems as I was younger... I was able to chase enlightenment without realising it.

While I can still explain these past and current feelings as delusions... the telepathically shared information and shared dream states are almost impossible to explain any other way than they actually happened... combined with my visit to the plane of the shared consciousness, it's really making me want to believe in more.

I haven't constructed my own belief system yet, I'm not sure what it will be... doing a lot of reading... but it's unlikely I'll just pluck something out of an existing system, perhaps take guidance from some.

What I experienced mirrors a lot of what the eastern mystics shared, along with american indians and south american tribes.

It seems like, before the development of modern society... we were much more in-tune with our spiritual side... or perhaps our consciousness and the shared consciousness (if they're even separate).

 

Yes, the linear progression of time seems like a human construct simply brought about by personal experience which is pushed upon our understanding, rather than a grander understanding.

 

Nice :sunny:

"time seems to stand quite still, in a child's world it always will"

"yesterday's dreams are tomorrows signs, watch children playing, they seem so wise"

 

I don't see how we can distinguish ourselves from time. We exist in the spacetime so much...why do we associate ourselves more with matter and energy than with spacetime? How do we tell which one is warped, in other words? Everybody's always talking about warping in spacetime, but doesn't all matter have to adhere to the laws of spacetime, and doesn't therefore spacetime warp matter instead?

But what is time without matter? I mean, spacetime shouldn't be dependent upon matter in order to be space and time, right? But how can there be an instant of time without an observer made of matter? Aye yie yie.

 

Early this am when I wrote that, it was about 5:30---I had been writing straight, (except for breaks to get coffee, eat, watch bits of Saturday Night Live…) from about 3:30 yesterday afternoon. I was getting pretty groggy but saw the thread and wanted to respond---I’m surprised it made much sense----but the funny thing is, I didn’t even think of the time references in that album----

Except for the part about where we may be presently influencing quanta particles in the past. I cannot see how we could do this at an empirical level. If we create our own time, it would be a subjectivistic experience within our own minds, and would affect our interpretation of the physical world around us, but not the physical world.

However, there is one possibility, to your point, that I have contemplated—and this ties into the fact that light, which ultimately all quanta are light, apparently does not experience time. We experience it travelling at a set speed through the universe, the speed of time—I like to think. But theoretically from the standpoint of light, it exists only as an instant. Light that has travelled for 26,000 years from the center of our galaxy to your eyeball, existed only for a moment, but to humans it was a 26,000 year moment. Therefore it could be that we are trapped within time, but those light particles, outside of time, are measured, created and absorbed simultaneously, and from our perspective, it happened in the linear time construct we made.

This starts to move into the realm of those theoreticians that claim that there is no time. It is purely a creation of the human mind. Therefore at this very moment, I am both entering into this world from my mother’s birth canal, and dying, in bed, in my lover’s arms, from the gunshot of her jealous husband (I think that is how it is supposed to happen…). (...she is 21, I am 101… Oh! I shouldn’t have added that part!)

If time did not exist, however, than I am simultaneously currently conscious at all these present moments of a universal instant in which my life (or lives) plays a part. Once again this would mean, ultimately, consciousness exists outside of time (because time does not exist). And in this way consciousness could be emergent, yet somehow seem as an a priori (though the latter argument still remains possible too).

 

But the kind of experience that Tastyweat and I have experienced is not a thought process. It is a deep understanding. In my experiments with Shamanistic States of Consciousness, there is usually a thought process—a conversation. A likely psychological explanation (ignoring spiritual possibilities) is that this knowledge is buried within our own subconscious mind, and that at moments, when we are immersed within the subconscious, we touch upon a deep chasm of repressed knowledge.

That is the ironic part—I had that same feeling, I wasn’t learning anything I didn’t know already, yet I didn’t understand that I knew it—and I wanted to hold onto all of that understanding, or as much as I could.

The Lakota say the children are wakan (sacred). Of course, a lot of traditions see them that way. Their ego’s have not sealed them into the overly objectivistic world of their parents.

The ego, as a filter designed to maintain consistency of personality with the focus on the conscious mind (because we deal with the world on conscious terms), does not allow us to perceive the irrational after solid ego development has occurred (in other words, once we have been properly programmed by the culture and society around us.

Once I started following the Red Road with my Lakota friends—the world became a very strange place. Well, actually before that, which is what led me to follow the Red Road.

I think the move away from the spiritual began with the move into villages at the dawn of the planter culture. Then came the developments of institutions, including that of religion, the rise of the male god (and the masculine) continued the process. Then, for the West, there is the development of rationalism in Ancient Greece, the rise of the church, St Thomas Aquinas, Descartes, the Protestant Reformation, Kant, the rise of the Industrial State, Modernism----all of these things played a role in creating the disjointed, abstract individual we have today, estranged from his own subconscious, chasing after short term pleasures rather than dealing with the real questions of the meaninglessness of his existence.

I see our individual consciousness as being of a higher dimension, than our physical selves, and that our physical self is manifested in this physical reality at that 4-dimensional point where our conscious self pierces into the physical. This is why we might have memories of another life, or what have you. Why there are cases of people who regain memories from parts of the brain that are brain dead. Why some people undego a trauma and no longer understand their mother language, but a language they do not know.And so forth.

 

That ties into what I was saying about light being outside of time.

I wanted to expand on your thought and say that at the quantum level, none of us are really objects. We are mostly empty space. In fact, based on one research team's reworking of Newtons inertia equation, we are really nothing more than bits of light energy trapped, roughly speaking, into place by inertia.

 

/\
and movement (inertia) can not exist without time. Just as time can not exist without movement. Time movement & energy are all one in the same.

 

He's talking about quantum inertia and it's relation to the properties of the universe within the holographic universe theory, I believe

 

Spiritualistic pseudo-science bullshit!

"If a tree falls in the forest and there was no spiritualistic pseudo-science nutbar there to observe it, then the tree never existed." - holographic universe type logic.

 

Ok... so creativity, spirituality and exploring ideas for the sake of exploring ideas is bad, huh?

Well... you go sit in the corner and stare at your shoes... I'll dissolve the walls and imagine alternate universes.

You are doing the exact same thing that you're preaching to be bad... following a strict belief system without allowing or even wanting to conceive of alternate ideas.

I have no strict belief system... that leaves open so much more wonder... I feel sorry for you.

Our existing knowledge system is logic based, but it is also experience based, strongly linked to our human experience.

You accept the observer effect, yet forget to consider the possibilities of what could cause it.

Expanding your mind does not mean you have to immediately believe in fairies... closing your mind is a way to restrict progression.

Think outside the box to expand knowledge, don't get stuck inside.

If there was no one to observe it, did it have to fall?

Was it in a state of suspension until just before observation?

Was it a human or animal consciousness that had to observe it? Could the consciousness of its surrounding plant life have been enough for the event to be significant?

Did the tree fall, or did you fall?

There is no spoon (tree).


While the answer to any of the above is most likely the simplest... "yes, if it's gonna fall, it's gonna fall... duh!"... thinking further than this is so much more interesting.

There is far more to this universe than you will ever know.

 

^ ain't that the tooth

 

All thoughts occur in minds. All minds arise from brains. All brains are physical systems. The content of a mind is the activity of that physical system. All activities within a physical system take time to occur. Thoughts are activities within physical systems. Therefore thoughts take time to occur, therefore thought is dependent on time.

That is what I believe anyway.

 

^
All logic, empirical science and medical evidence also supports exactly what you believe.

 

Wolf:

I'd say your understanding is a process. Unless... your having understood has stopped your understanding?! ;-D

At quantum level, all we are is objects! lol Motion has us all confused at one time, or another. ;-D

 

Wolf:

How we measure an outcome at quantum level affects it, but not retroactively. Everything we do affects us, being physical.

Consciousness can 'accomodate' lights constant as time, not being out of it.
It's what relaxxx is saying when he says energy is motion is time.

To say time is our own is not to say there's none.

Time is space seen along its change. My crazy notions about the potential of consciousness to hold matter to itself definitely/indefinitely may not be so crazy, one day. lol

When will time have devoured its children long enough, long enough that we'd in turn devour it, stomach it, polish it off, with ourselves? What if we discovered it was the only way not to polish ourselves off? :-D

 

But we are not solid objects. A hydrogen atom is the equivalent of a marble on the 50-yard line for the proton, and a marble at the field goal for the electron (if it is a particle), or a cloud of marble thickness surrounding the proton the same distance away from it (if it is a wave). We are therefore mostly empty space in a sea of zero-point light energy.

And then fundamentally, we may be nothing more than light, trapped in the physical dimensions, only able to jitter in place, creating the appearance of mass, instead of flying across the universe as light is wont to do. At such a level, we are only objects in so much as light is an object. (I mean a wave, I mean an object, no, I, mean a wave, no wait… particle…)

Actually the experiments suggest that it does. When light particles are run through a double slit, they hit the detector in a wave formation, or in a pattern that you would expect if it was traveling as a particle. The experiment shows that if you measure it as a wave, you generate a wave pattern at the detector. If you measure it as particles, you get a particle pattern. It has to be one way or the other using a double slit, because if it is a particle going through the double slit, a particle being a single object, can only go through one of the two slits, where as with a wave, it moves through both slits (and by choosing how to measure it, we determine which form it will manifest as.)

But then the experimenters move the measuring device past the slits, meaning that it should no longer determine whether it will be a wave or a particle, because it should have already passed through the slits as one form or the other. It should have already been determined in the ‘past’ when the particle was choosing which way to go through the slits. But no matter how often they do this experiment, or how they structure it, even after the measuring device is placed after the slits, it still gets the same results---if a particle is measured, a particle pattern appears, if a wave is measured, a wave pattern appears.

But light itself theoretically does not know time (as much as it can know anyway). Or put it this way, if we were to travel at the speed of light, theoretically, no matter how far we travelled, it would be a single instant from beginning to end.

In fact, I think Fred Alan Wolf, in one of his books, said that light travels through time, the way we travel through space. In other words , space is to light, what time is to man.

I was just taking it a step further to head down that avenue---there are a few prestigious scientists who suggest time does not exist.

I don’t think your notions are crazy, even if I don’t agree with their materialist conclusions---but I dig the concept. What is crazy is the Cartesian idea that takes Cogito ergo sum (I think therefore I am), disembodies that subjective observer, shaping the world into total objectivity, and then building on the base established by St. Thomas Aquinas, to determine that since the thinking consciousness of this, now disembodied observer, is immaterial it therefore does not exist. Whether Consciousness is an a priori, or emergent from matter, it is still a fact of life.

 

Actually, energy is the reciprocal of time with a power function involved... A rather important distinction as it demonstrates its exponentiality.

The equation suggests that to something with no mass, but with energy... Time would be irrelevant.

Fiddle with the figures in the equation and it too can show you some interesting properties, supposedly allowed by our standard model.

There is an astonishing amount of energy simply in our reflection.