This is only one paragraph of a story that disgusted me

Discussion in 'Random Thoughts' started by LuckyStripe, May 29, 2007.

  1. kitty fabulous

    kitty fabulous smoked tofu

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    what i find disturbing is not just the story but that people read this shit. it's like staring a a car wreck, and just as tacky.

    the qucik, classist choice of the words "trailer trash" does kind of bother me, as does the judgement against people with mental disorders. if this woman is impoverished, it's most likely she doesn't have access to the medical care she needs. at best, she'll be told to take her pill and go home.

    want to really make a difference in poverty, crime and drug abuse? work for MENTAL HEALTH REFORM because the system's a mess even if you aren't poor and have an advocate. if you're low-income and don't have an advocate, getting the "help" you need can be like living hell.
     
  2. LuckyStripe

    LuckyStripe Mundane.

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    Btw... I have worked for years in the mental health care system....

    :leaving:
     
  3. mamaKCita

    mamaKCita fucking stupid.

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    i think that's one of the funniest things i've ever read.
     
  4. Samhain

    Samhain Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    in that case is it sig worthy?
    S
     
  5. madcrappie

    madcrappie crazy fish

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    would you feel better if I called them "upstanding members of society"??
     
  6. madcrappie

    madcrappie crazy fish

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    would you feel better if I called them "outstanding members of society"??
     
  7. mamaKCita

    mamaKCita fucking stupid.

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    still, much love for the majority of the people in this thread. it's been a good, passionate discussion.
     
  8. Dustinthewind

    Dustinthewind woopdee fucking doo

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    If there was a restraining order, more than likely, he had limited visitation if any at all with the children. Most restraining orders (at least the ones I prepare) always have limited visitation requested for the opposing party. Afterall, there is a threat somewhere in there or no one would be asking for a restraining order in the first place. Of course, a lot of em are bougus.

    Someone really should have discussed birth control with the mom, those kids were damn close in age. I can see where she would have been stressed over it all. Sad that she chose the path she did though.
     
  9. mamaKCita

    mamaKCita fucking stupid.

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    c'mon now, there's a whole world of difference between the two.
     
  10. kitty fabulous

    kitty fabulous smoked tofu

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    i am sorry to hear that you have such a limited worldview as to only see either "trailer trash" or "outstanding members of society". It must be very difficult to solve problems with such limited, inflexible, and illogical thinking.


    the reason why i object to the use of the term is because it is classist: someone lives in a trailer, therefore they must be "trash", ergo it only figures that they committ a child murder-suicide.

    do you see where the logic breaks down? do you see how that view limits the ability to find out what really happened and how to find solutions to prevent future tragedies? do you see the dangerous insanity of such a thought process?

    they used to solve crime with that kind of presumptive "investigation". it was called "lynching" and there is a very good reason why it's illegal.

    i think it's obvious the woman needed help and was not getting it. does it explore facts, seek out solutions and work to prevent such serious tragedies to stop thinking at "trailer trash"?

    as for my sttements regarding mental health reform, i have seen the problems with the current system first hand myself. LuckyStripe,if you have worked within the mental health system, surely you have seen the difference in qualtiy of care offered to insured, financially stable people with advocates and uninsured, poor people with no advocates. patient dumping, neglect, under-staffing and under-funding, lack of advocacy, inadequate monitoring, stigmatizing, are all serious problems and are a matter of human rights. it varies state to state and some areas are worse than others, but the mental health care crisis is a big ugly gash in the grieviously wounded health care system in this country.

    we don't know what kind of health care this woman was recieving, or what her attempts or ability to attempt were to get the help she needed. is it productive, respectful, and sane to say "well, it figures they were trailer trash!" and stop there?
     
  11. kitty fabulous

    kitty fabulous smoked tofu

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    an aside, and this is not an attempt to hijack the thread but something else that should be considered: before passing judgement on the woman for not using or knowing about birth control, what is her background? was she Catholic? they condemn the use of birth control. there are other faiths that do as well. this is not something i personally agree with (in fact i am staunchly in favor of birth control accessibility and education) but it may have been a factor in this or other cases. women in some religious, cultural and economic backgrounds have very limited options in comparison to the largely Protestant middle class.

    is it fair or reasonable to pass judgement on a woman for being poor and having many children without knowing her background? what are low-income Catholic women, for example to do if they are in a relationship? Should poor women only be allowed to have sex if they are from a religious background that allows birth control and abortion? should they be denied even the freedom of relationships? suppose that restraining order had been due to rape?

    this presumptive thinking is priviledged, judgemental and not helpful.

    am i saying it is "okay" to have 4 kids in poverty and dysfunctional relationships and more than likely inadequate mental health care? NO! absolutely not.

    i am saying it is unproductive and indeed, counter-productive to pass judgement based soley on gender and class, without knowing the details of the case.
     
  12. Samhain

    Samhain Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    I don't understand why the fact she lived in a trailer park is being discussed to this extent.
    the bigger issues here (which I think you have already said Kitty) are this womans mental health and the fact that she killed her children.
    a reflection on how her enviroment may have effected her mind is one thing, but to have that as the main focas of discussion is completely missing the point.
    these things happen in all walks of life
    S
     
  13. mamaKCita

    mamaKCita fucking stupid.

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    :agree:
     
  14. kitty fabulous

    kitty fabulous smoked tofu

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    because there is a hate-fueled classist sterotype which many ignorant people insanely regard as irrefutable fact that says all people who live in trailer parks (and by association, are poor) must be irresponsible, lazy, uneducated psychos.




    this post will undoubtedly be followed by an endless steam of anecdotal evidence by people who "know/are related to these people who live in a trailer park and they are lazy/dirty/stupid/crazy", to "prove" beyond any question of a doubt that this insanely illogical reasoning is in fact, the gospel truth.


    yeah, and everybody knows someone who knows someone who has seen Bigfoot, too. :rolleyes:
     
  15. Samhain

    Samhain Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    thats because by thinking that, one places a comfortable amount of space between themselves and people they regard as inferior and then truely believe that the majority of 'those peoples' problems will never effect them, because they're not that low
    S
     
  16. kitty fabulous

    kitty fabulous smoked tofu

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    and btw, sam, thank you for being one of the sane ones.

    Wasn't Andrea Yates from a white, middle class suburb? she had a lot of kids, too, and killed them.


    this, as the article says, has happened repeatedly in Texas. In all cases, the mothers were found to be insane.

    Why are we attacking this woman's economic class instead of taking a look at the mental health care available to women in Texas, and the factors contributing to women's mental illness???
     
  17. Dustinthewind

    Dustinthewind woopdee fucking doo

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    I wasnt judging her by any means. Just stating that she should have used some sort of birth control if life was as bad as it must have been for her to make the decisions she did.

    Maybe a better way to have put it was to keep her legs closed. :)
     
  18. kitty fabulous

    kitty fabulous smoked tofu

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    Wow, that is a very harsh and judgemental way of putting it. I understand you think you're trying not to judge her, but please, maybe you'd better look at your thinking, or else how you're phrasing things.

    Again I ask, what if the restraining order was because of rape? Should she have "kept her legs closed" to a rapist? What if she was raped and had no access to birth control, either through ignorance, religion, or her economic situation?

    And even in instances where it's not rape, what about low-income women who are from a background that does not encourage birth control, for example, Catholics. Should low-income Catholics not be allowed relationships unless they are willing to either go against their religious beliefs or settle for relationships and marriages devoid of intimacy? Is sex only a sin for those who can't afford it? Would you condemn yourself to a sexless existence under such circumstances?

    Again, none of the above scenarios excuse this woman's actions. But:

    1) It is classist and judgemental to paint low-income people with the same brush as this murderer, shrugging off relevant factors with "it figures, they're trailer trash", and "she should have kept her legs closed."

    2) It is disrespectful to the child victims and the sole survivor to dismiss the tragedy of their own mother committing infanticide/suicide and not examine the factors that clearly affected their brief little lives as well,

    and

    3) would-have-could-have-should-have judgement ("she should have kept her legs closed") does not foster an understanding of the situation and prevent future tragedies from occurring. we need to examine all the factors affecting this women's terrible life before prescribing fascile solutions, otherwise the structure for understanding, healing and change is weak and incomplete.
     
  19. Dustinthewind

    Dustinthewind woopdee fucking doo

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    Ok, so I am harsh...I really disagree with that statement, but whatever. Its your opinion. so I guess I will now be harsh and judgmental.

    here is an article i found... discusses the restraining order and such, and how she was afraid to report any of the violence to the police because she was afraid of being deported. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/4848440.html
    It does state that ONE time her ex ( they were common law-not married) forced sex on her. That I guess could count for one of the children and the way they were concieved. (emphasis and sarcasm added). by rape of course! wouldnt be that she was uhm, lack for a better word, loose or anything. But then again with her mental problems, she could have been a nymphomaniac

    This article also states that the father that is mentioned is the father of two of the children who were murdered by their mother, leaving two other children without any named biological father....(well not yet anyways.) I spose those two innocent murdered children were conceived by rape as well and not maybe because someone didnt think to practice safe sex and liked to make babies so that she could collect welfare or get other hand outs. (the more kids you have, the more money you get). Probably goes down from her grandmother, to her mother, to her sisters, and probably would have proceeded down to their children and their children had they not been murdered by their mother.

    By no means am I saying everyone who collects welfare are like this, i totally understand that some people really need welfare.

    but WHAT if the murdering mother was like this?
    What if she was working the system, its been known to happen.
    What if the murdering mother of three children, did have a mental problem, damn, she easily could have gone to seek help.

    the victims here are the children and the only remaining one that is alive, the mother could rot in hell for all i care. fuck her and her mental problems. she should have seeked help, she had places to go , places that she had been before that were more than willing to help her. She didnt seek it, her fault.

    and as for religion--i dont think that the (in the old days) catholic church promotes fucking like rabbits when unmarried. (thats probably worth twelve hail mary's)
     
  20. LuckyStripe

    LuckyStripe Mundane.

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    Don't feel bad... I said the same thing. Four kids is a lot for someone, espiecially someone that age.... if she was depressed- she could have used birth control and not had so many kids. I don't see myself as being mean by saying that either.

    After she had four kids, when she realized she was depressed she should have gotten help... I don't know why I'm still talking about this topic though because it seems many people don't agree.
     

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