theyve cut ken bigleys head off

Yes, this is a thread about Mr. Bigley and he deserves respect and I agree with you, why would anyone want to see it, i sure don't. Now on the part I disagree with you..If Bush hadn't led us into war, you are saying, Mr. Bigley still would have died? I'm sorry I think Bush should have done things differently. I was hoping Mr. Bigley would be ok, and wouldn't have been killed but i knew better, yes these people are so evil and they piss us all off..But, when we went to war..it opened up a hornets nest over there in Iraq and it just gets worse day by day..I'm sick of it, I wish we could hurry up and get this war over with..but now it's gonna take years before that'll ever happen, and in the meantime..there will be a lot more beheadings and murders because of this damn war..

 

yeah all the people that have died at the hands of these people should be given more respect ... the thing is all nationalities including iraqis have been taken hostage

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040831/325/f1mv5.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=2754

well the list goes on and on... these people don't give a toss about americans or anyone especialy the iraqi people (imho), only their crazy ideaologies that are so extreme that they don't even warrant looking into ... but i did try too in the link i had in my prev post.

so even if we were not their ...i feel sure they would have brought this war of theirs to us or used another situation somewere in the world to carry out their madness . So no i can't realy blame anyone , because i think then possibly you may give a little validity to these crazy people.

 

I just can't agree with that. You are saying "If we didn't invade Iraq they would have brought the war to us." That makes no sense, especially after the recent inspectors findings.

How can you not blame us when we are the ones who started this war in Iraq? Not that these people are justified in what they are doing. Just that WE started this war, and there are always consequences.

My father's business partner, an Iraqi, said that the biggest mistake we made was distroying the Iraqi military. Their military was very skilled at keeping bastards like this under control.

 

Yeah, i went a little overboard there.

 

So when 100,000 Kurds were killed (several times the number killed by the US) in the Anfal campaign it was OK because it wasn´t "chaos"?

I don´t blame the people of Iraq. I blame the individuals who did it and their supporters. You are the one that believes in collective guilt and apologises for the deliberate targetting of civilians.

Then the French should have been cutting our heads off after we landed at Normandy, because I heard some of our bombs missed and killed French civilians too.

Remember, these people also kill journalists, UN staff, and aid workers. Can you explain EXACTLY WHY you deliberately ignore these inconvenient facts in your efforts to rationalise the murder of less politically favorable civilians?

If an Iraqi insurgent fires an RPG at a US military vehicle, it misses, and the rocket hits a civilian, I might not complain. If instead they kidnap that same civlian and cut his head off, I´ll have the audacity to complain.

Right. Wouldn´t have been Saddam then. Funny, you keep forgetting about that guy.

 

In a way i suppose certain groups have ... by blowing up people all over the world..innocent civillians .. for no reason .. i did not mean we will be 'fighting on the beaches' or anything like that

iraqi civillians get kidnaped daily and kept for ransom..they find it within themselves to not kill as many iraqis in the same manner as Mr Bigley .. but its more criminal than political imho..

You say we started this war..well a person named saddam had a big part to play as well..

You can say its our fault...i can say its not , but i hope that because we are their then an end is in sight , and peace will come rather than the hussein dynasty being in power and everything he did continuing for years possibly decades to come. I don't realy like playing No.s game but weigh up how many he killed and that are being killed due to our being their..our deaths are a unavoidable consequence of other peoples action (i think) rather than a systematic killing of his political opponents and their followers...and any one else that got in his way.

 

I am not saying that these people's actions are our fault. These men are obviously capable of doing this, they obviously choose to do this. They also have the choice to not do it.
What i ment was that these are the consequences of war, and unfortunatly, we have to pay them.
So I guess we agree to an extent.

But as far as Iraq bringing the war to us...that was not going to happen. There were and still are greater threats to US security, and the security of the globe, than Iraq.

 

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina41011.htm
we arnt going to win unless we understand the enemy ...Moqtada Al Sadr may put down some guns for a time, but that isnt because he wants peace he just wants to get into a better position to kill you.
thats what mohammed did tricked people with peace treatys theres a word for it called a hudna thats the best this guy will offer you.

 

'whatever' he is at least playing the game as it were..

We do understand the 'enemy' not the logic of crackpots ... so dealing with Moqtada Al Sadr and his ilk is not as much of a problem as dealing with abu Musab al-Zarqawi and his ilk.. does your link sort of or directly say that we should 'defeat' all muslims ... do you believe that , if so have a lie down for a while in a dark room , you may have a migrain or something wrong with your mind. We don't need to defeat all muslims because unfortunatly for muslims a few have decieded that they have a 'holy war' to sort out , logical/rational NO . Understanding people like this is easy but its getting them out of the way so normal people (muslim or not) can get on with their lives in a bit of peace and hopefuly prosperity.

 

the pnac sure does... any country that does not share american interests and values, the pnac is willing to go to war to defeat, to "promote american interests abroad".

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

members of the pnac include: Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfield, Jeb Bush, Eliot Cohen, and Steve Forbes; to name but a few...

 

wow thats a strech of interpretation ..does not look that way to me . I have heard but not read a awful lot about the pnac 'threat'...i brushed it aside as just another conspiracy. It looks intresting though ??.

when the bush administration ask the people of iraq and afghanistan and all the other places muslims live too stop being muslims .. then i may just take what you say seriously.

Pnac looks bombastic (no pun intended) but most american things are .

 

I know it's a stretch, but not really all that much of one when you look at how we're carrying out our foreign policy. There are many, many countries that do not have American values... I assume that most Muslim countries do not have a separation of church and state, and support non american ideals, if they aren't outright dictatorships already (ie: Saudie Arabia, Jordan, Iran, China, Sudan, Cuba, Libya, Syria, and Vietnam, to name a few); whether or not those countries have or adapt to make humane policies, follow UN recommendations and such... if it's not a bonafied democracy... those are regimes this group want to aggressively attack, be it sanctions or outright war.

I've read plenty of "conspiracy theories", and while I don't necessarily buy into them, the coincidences sure are piling up.

 

Lots of other religeons don't share american values ..whatever that means ??

The Roman catholics want everyone to go to confessional if they vote for kerry



*ponders*Now what was it about religeon that i did not like again ?????

It might be a bit arrogant to spread american values (whatever they are) around the globe ...but surely they are a darn site better than some. Not that i advocate such thinking. Anyway is it a cross party organisatin so whoever get into the white house the pnac plan can continue ?? mmm seems a bit conviniant way of moving the debate to a independant canditate as a choice ?? .

 

matthew there are two threats from islam you have people who at present are up in the hills fighting jihad .

you have the others who believe they will get what they want by gradually increasing their numbers so that gradually they will take over the world.

They may as the situation permits use force to, but in a situation where they hold most of the cards, because they have built up numbers and divided their enemys

now thats the situation, ali sina used to be a muslim and there are a raft of other people all ex-muslims, who at danger to themselves either are writing books or speaking and saying the same thing.

it may not be a politically correct or comforting thing to say, but that is the game plan
the people who dont understand this are people who dont really understand the religion
people like bush, blair, kerry, the western media.

at present our goverments are helping the spread of islam ,they promote the lie that islam has peaceful intentions towards us.
we are going to be bringing in laws to jail critics of islam already you have authors who are critical of the religion or who mock mohammed living in hiding and fear like salman rushdie.
in europe this will only get worse when we have 83 million new muslim members from turkey in the eu , but even without them if you look at the demographics large amounts of the eu is going to be islamic and in not that long a time frame .
ali sina thinks you may be able to convince muslims that islam is fake so they gradually leave the religion this would be a peaceful non violent option ..otherwise we are heading for trouble

 

you have the others who believe they will get what they want by gradually increasing their numbers so that gradually they will take over the world.


no joke: I work with somebody (probably more than one person) that beleives this to be true..I tease them all the time that what they thinks is ridiculous (very rude i know oops) I do actualy listen to what they have to say though , i am not a complete jackass. Might start listening a bit more .

 

So Muslims are crazy because they want their belief system spread all over the world, but Americans AREN'T crazy when they want THEIR belief system spread all over the world. Ok, I get it. Thanks.

 

Whether they are crazy or not isn’t the point, I don’t personally like their belief system so I don’t see why I should just let them do their jihad and take over the world.



If you look at countries like turkey they basically had Ataturk and the Turkish army use military force to impose secularism, and there is no guarantee that in the long term they are going to win that turkey isn’t going to go the same way as Iran



I’m not saying that America and the west isn’t imperialist, but after looking at the two Islamic imperialism or western Id choose western

 

Hell, I choose none. I don't think any culture has the right to force their influence on the world.

 

You would have to believe they are trying to spread their belief system around the world (whatever that is)... if they are , its not a religous belief (imho).