the Usda wants the taxpayer to buy them GUNS

how so? This has been my opinion for 6 months or more. and it is soley because, once you realize the government is a cancer, you eventually don't want to leave any of that cancer to spread and destroy society, yet again.

By using the "/," you're insinuating that these are inter-changable. However, I think it will inevitably happen in our countries, and I think it will happen within the next 100 years, but, I also believe the more the government goes after regular citizens, the quicker the people will turn on them.

Why? Everyone knows no Government would willfully give up all that money and, power. is it really far fetched to say they will abuse the Nsa and newer policies allowing them to kill/detain citizens, by targeting political dissonance and free speech??

Step back and think what so-called "terrorists" are. To the US Government, it is people who don't approve of what they are doing. Meanwhile, the US government is collecting TONS of metadata on US citizens, including phone records, emails and, even webcam footage.

i don't think it is far fetch at all. Government has killed US citizens for no reason, and many Liberals defended Obama then, if Hillary decides to kill all political dissonance, she'd just say "Oh, well we've killed citizens before" and suddenly, it's okay. Much like Obama using the same excuse...

 

^On that last paragraph there, I was not referring or blaming a certain economic class.

I was talking about an abstract construct of what it means to be successful and how a society defines that. In the USA, success is defined as having a lot of money (aka: being rich)

I meant nothing more than that.

 

I probably should have said: Back peddaling BY removing the more alarmist tone.
It seems that is not the case, though.

I used '/' to save time.
I'm saying It is unlikely in our countries and in our lifetimes.
You are welcome to think it is inevitable, but maybe not in our lifetime (I don't forsee either one of living over the age of 100.)
I probably won't make it another 50 (how depressing).

If you are talking about the majority of the people of both our countries turning into you - what are you going to do to remove power and the money?
Write a stern letter to Fox News?

As far as millions of people are concerned, yes I do think it extremely far-fetched.

There are vastly more important issue than mass surveilance/the size of government to warrant what ever you think 'the people' are inevitably going to do, and I would say it has already happened over the last 100 years.
Yet, here we all are.

 

BTW, what's with you thumbing down other peoples posts and thumbing up your own?

 

post 1 of 6

No it's not. Because, they don't have the power to come over to me and say
"Stop smoking that plant, or we're going to put you in a box."

You're justified in protecting your own property.(including your body or your family.)
a security agency would only have that same power if hired by you, they are not "above the law," as "Government" today is.
and, this is why I don't call it Government. "Government" is a body that maintains the individuals power through force. This organization would be through consent, which would ch[FONT=Verdana]ange the dyn[/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]amics completely. [/FONT][/FONT]

It's not a Government,
and, i feel like you're purposely calling it that. First of all, it is not a centralized oligarch of power. Secondly, each of these government agencies Epa, security etc. would all be different industries
and hopefully different companies. I'm not saying we should have a corporate-ran government, I'm saying they can take the place of government, in the very few departments that the Government actually provides legitimate services.

No, because in the freemarket, these industries would have competition and liability. In fact, there is nothing more democratic than true free market capitalism. i have a very easy way of fixing this problem; Stop supporting corporations with reprehensible practices.

Liberals bitch and moan about job outsourcing, but they still buy their Coka cola products.

these problems that we may (or may not) have, are easily fixed, and they don't justify a system of violence to "fix" them..

I imagine you're talking about feudalism. i'm glad you capitalized the "BUT,"
cause now I shouldn't have to explain that government allowed for this to happen.


But, i've said the initiation of force is wrong, there's not much they could do without a centralized system of power. The only
authority they have, is to protect their own property, which is the same authority you have. just because a wealthy business owner earned much more than me, doesn't make his wealth unjustified. However, if it was stolen from the tax payer, or, if they were forced into stupid laws for the proft of the wealthy, then, their wealth is unjustified- But, not all rich people are crooks, and the only we're seeing this transfer of wealth, is because certain industries make money through government wars and spending, so we need perpetual spending, to boost their benefits.


Today, we are slaves of the corporations, because they're able to utilize different branches of the Federal Government to get what they want. the people are not near as forgiving as the Government, and if someone was draining the great lakes per say (Nestle,) they would be liable to everyone who has property around those lakes, for the damages they're responsible for. instead, they pay a mere 200$ a year, and keep pumping.


The system we have now, is feudalism globalized, legalized and centralized.

that is the excuse for Regulations. anytime government grabs more power, they need an excuse, because how much they can get away with, is directly connected to how much people will tolerate.


You're right that there was tainted foods in the market, and government used this disaster as means of grabbing more power.The government doesn't let any disaster go to waste. They know how to racket off of our fear, trust and, faith.

So, they used a few people getting food poisoning, as an excuse why we need the government to tell us what we can and can't eat.

Now, in the 1960's, companies didn't have much (if any) liability, and the people had no way of letting a nationwide message of malpractice. Therefore, it made sense for people to accept a government program.


But, for you Liberals to sit here and act like Regulations are protecting us from Mad Cow Decease or illnesses, is simply not true. gmo's and their creator 'monsanto' (the people who created 'agent orange.') have been above any kind of prosecution from the government- epa,fda, and, obama included. the CEO of monsanto actually became the head of the fda, just long enough to change the rules in their favor.

so, in other words, you're not going to convince me, that a fair system that doesn't have a corruptible power structure, is worse than the already corrupted power structure, we have today.

 

post 2 of 6

I've explained to you, that these arguments are misdirections from the real problems in society. you simply can't fix a broken government system, with more taxes, more power and, absolute control. NO ONE should be trusted with the power of a presidency, when that person has the "legal" authority to execute citizens. I mean, if murdering and spying on your own citizens is not Orwellian enough.

the liberal agenda would benefit the wealth much more than my system. The biggest, most corrupt businesses, don't care about getting taxed more. Infact, a large majority of america's rich/elite supports Obama, higher taxes and, the Liberal agenda.

This is not because it "helps the little guy." It is because their corporations have become dependent on special government benefits. do you think those come free?? The military-industrial complex pays good money to their candidates- but, it is policy/laws they want control of, not mere taxes.


besides, no matter what you Liberals believe, more government, higher taxes and, government control DOES NOT help the individual. the laws we have on the books, allows a 17 year old, to get arrested for "kiddie porn" and tried as an adult, for taking a picture of themselves naked. But, hey, I guess if it m[FONT=Verdana]ade sense, you Government symp[/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]athizers wouldn't rely on force to te[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ach people "Right" from "wrong."

Besides, I believe it t[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]akes some ignor[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ance, to believe everything leg[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]al is "good," [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]and illeg[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]al is "b[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ad," strictly for our "s[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]afety."

Some drugs that are legal, are much more dangerous than the illegal drugs they replicate. the only reason things are made "illegal" is because it benefits the Government or, corporations somehow...

the elite we're speaking about, spend millions of dollars on getting their candidates elected- i highly doubt a mere tax increase is really a threat to the powers that be. The only thing that would happen under liberalism is, the Government would steal more of our money, to distribute it to Israel, Jihadists and, the military-industrial complex.


I mean, I don't even understand where Liberals come off thinking that taxes benefit us. Sure, they may benefit some people who don't work, and the elite, who manipulate the stock market, but, they don't help the Middle/Working class of this country, and, those are the people that get hurt when you raise taxes, print money, raise minimum wage etc. Total Government (communism) is a state in which only the Government has "more" money, and everyone else in very, very low class.

So, when you think about it, capitalism (which
allows anyone with a good idea or product to benefit from that,) is
alot fairer than communism, in which, the government controls 90% of our money. If you don't agree with that, we will probably never agree.

Welfare is for people who don't work, or, employees who can't afford to live. This isn't because corporations don't pay enough, but rather, because the value of the dollar has went down substantially due to banks and, government efforts of the past 100 years. In 1964, 5 silver quarters an hour, was the minimum wage,
and, that's equal to roughly $35 today. Therefore, it is my opinion th
at Liberalism demands more money and more government, for problems that were caused by Government to begin with.

We don't need a violent organization to live together peacefully. To say we need a perpetual state of war and violence to maintain peace, should be counterintuitive to anyone who truly understands peace...

 

post 3 of 6

corporations have built ro[FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ads. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]guess what else? They do a BETTER job than government. They maintain speed by clearing up any accidents immediately, and they're now making money on a road, that the government was losing money on.

I think industries would rise up for everything you mentioned and more, and just like the roads, provide a better and cheaper service through government.


When you really think about what the "roads" have costed the US, and (the government themselves) the benefit imo doesn't near outweigh the cost...

corporations are like people, some are good, some are bad, some are a little of both. But, you shouldn't just punish people merely because they made something of themselves. If they have corrupt practices, we should punish those, and, that's what Liberals don't grasp. They assume without Government, corporations would do whatever they want, when, all people need to do, is not support them for 6 months, and watch their business go face down.

We need consumers that are aware of what they're buying

by whom? you? I know I wasn't there, cause if I were, I'd argue that corporations do both. Yes, they typically do it for a profit. That's not greed; It is offering someone a product at a low price, to make sales. and, American's consentually buy these products. Therefore, you're not Autom[FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]atic[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ally evil, for being [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]a business owner. However, those who use Government force, t[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]axes, 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to benefit 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the 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expense. But, [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]as long as you Liberals totally ignore that, you're not even going to realize the problem.


To think that we need more money and power in the hands of a violent racket, deserves alot more criticisms than the opposite. When the government built the roads, it was only 1/100th of the size it is today. Still, you're biggest excuse for government, h[FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]appened[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] nearly a half a century ago. Since which, the US Government has been responsible for the deaths of 130 MILLION individuals-- is it really worth those roads? Maybe to Liberals and Republicans, but not imo.

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SO what is it ‘small government’ or ‘a voluntary society, without government´?

We have been through the whole ‘freedom’ thing before and as explained you definition of freedom seem to be based on Social Darwinist ideas of the ‘freedom’ to live or die (no welfare etc) which as explained seems to be about the ‘freedom’ of wealth to exploit the weaker.

What laws - and if wealth was in control of governance and the adjudication and creation of laws how wouldn’t they be in control?

Look above and you will see you are not addressing the criticisms you are just telling us you are right and we are wrong just telling us this or that would happen, because you believe it will does not address the flaws others see in those beliefs.

We have tried to explain our criticism – all you seem to do is tell us they are wrong – without putting up any rational counter argument.

I’ve done nothing else but explain why wealth is in a position of power at present and why I think your ideas would make that bad situation far worse.

I keep explain often at length and in detail why your ideas you would most likely give more power to wealth essentially - little or no taxes, little or no regulations on the pursuit of profit, little or no welfare and a government that’s main concern would be the protection of property and wealth.

BUT you are NOT getting rid of government you still want a government that protects wealth and property paid for by those with the means to pay for it. A place where the ‘police’ would be wealth sponsored ‘security agents’, and the judicial system would be funded through voluntary contributions.

i have no idea if this was an attempt to defend the liberal disarmament agenda or what, but london is the crime capital of Europe, and guns are illegal there, so the puzzle pieces don't connect that way

how could i tell you what the punishment would be, if I don't know the crime?


If you've been using Government to manipulate the law, and harm people, Like Monsanto or Goldman Sachs, I essentially think they should be shut down, all tax money returned, and those who made these key bribery, fraud and other such illegal activity, should go to jail, just as any individual would. I don't believe corporations or Government is above the law, and in that way, my system is much better than this system of corruption, that is rotten to the core.


This Government is so bad, they've extensively spied on #OWS, anonymous, Ron Paul supporters and, "defenders of the US Constitution."

This means, they're literally going after political dissonance and free speech. The things that have been going on under Bush and Obama, is bringing more people to my ideals than you could imagine.We're out to fix what is wrong with this country, which is Government, and the corporations which control their policies and laws.

 

post 4 of 6

again, it's illegal to intiate force, it's not illegal to protect your property. tax money belongs to the people, therefore, we should logically get that money back.

the idea that we need men with guns, to swoop in, take money from them, you and, me to make the world fairer and more peaceful, is a logical fallacy to begin with. when this happens, they steal everyones money, and spend it on themselves or, their corporate buddies.

 

post 5 of 6

this is just repeating the same old assumption. you don't even pay attention to my points of how to make such a society work, then, you repeat the same Liberal criticisms that insinuate if the Government can't do it, it can't be done.


My ideals are based on the individual, first of all. secondly, as I said above, no one is above the law; When you commit a real crime, involving hurting someone or, stealing their property, you're giving up your rights to live in a free society,(at least for some time) and may be caged. However, if someone broke into my home with a weapon, I'd take him out, and Id suggest any other american, do the same.

 

post 6 of 6

this is just repeating the same old assumption. you don't even pay attention to my points of how to make such a society work, then, you repeat the same Liberal criticisms that insinuate if the Government can't do it, it can't be done.


My ideals are based on the individual, first of all. secondly, as I said above, no one is above the law; When you commit a real crime, involving hurting someone or, stealing their property, you're giving up your rights to live in a free society,(at least for some time) and may be caged. However, if someone broke into my home with a weapon, I'd take him out, and Id suggest any other american, do the same.

i disagree, when people get aware of the situation, and, there's controversy, companies risk their brand name, and their customers.

I'm not shrugging off anything. but, by comparison, government eliminates millions of people (260 mill in the past 100 years,) so to defend
a system of complete and utter force to so-called 'keep us safe," contradicts itself. yes, there are preventable deaths out there, and no one should profit from it. But, you're defending a system that does the same thing on a global-scale, to allegedly protect us from small scale corruption. I just don't buy in.

btw the gun control argument is identical to this, because it to relies on force and violence, to allegedly protect us, but, barging into our homes and taking our guns, with guns, is not what I call freedom or safety.

all the extra taxes. americans like cheap products, so, to make them cheap, the corporation goes to places with less taxes.

this is why less taxes, would expand our economy, and be good for the poor/unemployed, because there would be more jobs out there. i stand by what i said, that corporations are benefitted greater by Government, than less taxes. this is why rich people aren't anarchists like me, but liberals like you, who want government to maintain control of us on an individual level, saying 'don't smoke pot,' 'don't dance on the jefferson memorial/subway,' etc etc etc.

I believe each of these laws, are there to profit these specific industries,and i don't see how taking away their power, ability for corruption and, embezzled taxes, would possibly cause a worse situation than we have now. that seems extremely far fetched. i don't think any one corporation, is worse than our corporate government, who systematically kill for money and power...

 

this is a flat out lie, because you got offended that someone liked my post above. that wasn't me, and i have never 'liked' my own post, (unless it was a complete accident)

I dislike posts that show blatant ignorance, or, assume the US Government is inherently good, or at least, that sounds like the argument to me, because it's no different truly, than what we already have...

 

No need to get so wound up.
It just seemed rather suspicious to me.
If it's the case it just so happens peoples posts are thumbed down and yours are thumbed up around the same time - fair enough (I was not just talking about the posts above).
No worries.
I'm not offended in the slightest - was just curious.

 

Where did you get that chart of campaign donations? Are those donations from the actual Army/Air Force/Navy or an aggregate of donations from service members? How much did they each donate to Obama and Romney? Just because they weren't among top donators to Obama/Romney does not mean that they didn't donate to them, it just means that not many people gave significant amounts of money to Ron Paul.

 

25

This doesn’t answer the questions – who makes the law – who adjudicates the laws – what if someone refuses to consent?

First you say it is not a government (It's not a Government) then you say it is a government (the very few departments that the Government actually provides legitimate services.)

What ‘legitimate’ (legal, laws) services are you taking about and who makes the laws and who adjudicates them?

There never has been and never could be a ‘free market’ as shown and explained many times.

How? Can you explain the fixes?

Feudalism was an example of a de-centralized power system. Lords were semi-autonomous (often de facto autonomous) within their areas. They could afford private armies which gave them power; in your system those with wealth could afford the private armies/security agents - how does your system stop them from taking power?

*
Re my point that your tax cuts would seem to advantage wealth you reply -

That does NOT address the criticisms raised you just seem to be evading them. And it would seem to be very important since for many the big problem is the influence wealth has within society.

In the last thirty years of tax cuts the real term incomes of the middle and lower classes have fallen while the wealth of a few has grown vastly.

*

Re your comments on capitalism and communism
As said – stop thinking in black and white open you ideas and see the many colours – There are many forms of capitalism and socialism some overlapping.

*

RE private companies are about private profit not public service.

But who gets the profit – in practice most privatization has resulted in the lower in wages and conditions of employees and the expanding of remuneration at the top.

Also how do you bring in ‘profit and loss’ into such things as a social worker trying to spot child abuse?

And although it is possible to turn over public services over to private firms that doesn’t mean they are privately funded, they are still finaceed with public funds it just means you are transferring public money from an accountable (and in a democracy changeable) public body to an unaccountable and undemocratic private corporation, and the costs may be not that different

*

RE Inflation

We have been through but to put it - simplistically - deflation isn’t good and stability is impossible so inflation is going to happen. The key is to keep wages relative to inflation.

*

As has been discussed – yes they have BUT that doesn’t mean they would have in those places where they didn’t.

Many infrastructure projects (such as road, canal and sewage systems etc) have been built by governments you cannot say they would have been done privately because they were not.

I don’t and I didn’t say I would – I said that One moment you are pointing out how bad corporations are the next you say how good they are. – you now think some are good and some are bad

We have been through that at length and your assertion doesn’t stand up
I live in London it has a population of around 7.5 million and it only had 175 homicides between Apr-2005 to Apr-2006. In fact in 2009 there were only 651 murders in the whole of England and Wales with a population of around 55 million.

But let us take an American city - Philadelphia – it I believe has a population of around 6.1 million yet it had 406 homicides in that same year. So two Philadelphia’s with only 12.2 million people would create 812 murders, more than what is produced by 55 million Brits.

But if you take out gun related homicides from the US crime figures they are not that much different from those of many European countries that have gun restrictions (although it is incredible difficult to compare any crime statistics other than homicide).
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=484487&page=2

Who makes the laws - who would adjudicate them?

Who decides on those laws? Who would adjudicate on that? How would they be adjudicated?

Who would adjudicate on that? How would they adjudicate? What would happen if they refused to give it back?

But wealth brings power and influence so those individuals with more wealth would have more power.

Who decides on the laws?

Who adjudicates on those crimes? What if someone refuses to ‘be caged’?

What if one of the wealth sponsored private armies/security agents breaks into your home in force?

BUT as pointed out the last thirty years of tax cuts have not expanded the real term wages of the middle and lower classes while greatly expanding the wealth of a few.

BUT as pointed out you are basically saying that US workers should ‘compete’ with people with the lowest wages on the planet – something that would only seem to serve the interests of wealth.

Kicking global wealth out of the driving seat
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=353922

 

25

As you can see above it didn’t take much to reply to your replies because you are still refusing to address the criticisms leveled at your ideas.

The system you seem to be promoting does seem designed to favour the interests of wealth to the detriment of everyone else – all the bluster about freedom, corruption and war does NOT address those criticisms.

 

I think he means 'organised crime capital' which isn't the same as 'crime capital' or includes gun crime statistics.
I suppose it's easier to imply 'crime capital' as if to suggest that includes ALL crimes.
It's a little sneaky if done on purpose.
I wouldn't like to say if that is true or false.

 

Odon


He didn’t say 'organised crime capital' and anyway as I’ve pointed out elsewhere* “Guns in the hands of ‘decent’ ordinary citizens are not much use in tackling white collar or computer crime neither is it against the mostly closed worlds of organised crime”


*http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=7960465&postcount=136

 

Balbus

I know he didn't. That was my point.

'I think he means'
'I suppose it's easier to imply 'crime capital' as if to suggest that includes ALL crimes.'


Britain is Organised Crime Capital of Europe, Says Europol

In a report to be published later his month, the EU law enforcement agency will reveal the existence of an estimated 3,000 large organised crime groups across the continent. That would mean around 1,500 gangs are currently targeting the UK, making it in line to become the crime capital of Europe.

This from 2009



2013

Rates of murder and violent crime have fallen more rapidly in the UK in the past decade than many other countries in Western Europe, researchers say.

The UK Peace Index, from the Institute for Economics and Peace, found UK homicides per 100,000 people had fallen from 1.99 in 2003, to one in 2012.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22275280

I have no idea how the rest of Europe collects it's crime data, and if it is as exhaustive as the UK. I don't imagine it is.

He hasn't backed it up with anything so far.
I have noticed his info is sometimes a little dated (repeating it often, but not bothering to see if it is still valid. An e.g being he still says Ted Turner is the No. 1 land owner in the U.S)

 

It is notoriously difficult to compare the crime figures from two different countries because there are so many variables that are not represented in the plain figures.

Most official offices of statistics (eg the UN and the Bureau of Justice) warn against such comparisons.

The statistics cannot take into account the differences that exist between the legal definitions of offences in various countries, of the different methods of tallying, etc.Consequently, the figures used in these statistics must be interpreted with great caution. In particular, to use the figures as a basis for comparison between different countries is highly problematic.
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/crime_cic...y_seventh.html

Different definitions for specific crime types in different countries: The category in which any incident of victimization is recorded relies on the legal definition of crime in any country. Should that definition be different, and indeed this is often the case, comparisons will not in fact be made of exactly the same crime type. This is particularly the case in crimes that require some discretion from a police officer or relevant authority when they are identified. For example, the definitional difference between serious or common assault in different legal jurisdictions may be different, and this will be reflected in the total number of incidents recorded.
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/crime_cicp_surveys_3.html

Note: BJS cannot validate any data obtained from non-BJS sources, nor does BJS encourage comparisons of national data due to differences in classifications of crimes and methodological differences.
Bureau of Justice Statistics
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/ijs.htm

Definitions of offences vary between countries due to both legal differences and statistical recording methods. For example, the USA and Canada do not appear to include minor assaults, intimidation, and threats within their definition of violent crime. However, New Zealand does include these crimes in its definition, and these offences comprise approximately half of all violent crime in this country. Also, New Zealand does not include sexual offences in violent crime, whereas Australia, USA, Canada, England and Wales do.
http://www.justice.govt.nz/pubs/repo...section-2.html

Additionally, the Home Office's July 2000 "Review of Criminal Statistics: A discussion document" indicates how difficult it is compare crime rates between their own forces, let alone conducting international comparisons, stating that amongst the England and Wales' Police:
"There is some confusion in what is counted as a recorded crime......(there are) two contrasting approaches to recording crimes that are currently in use by police forces. The first is a "prima facie" approach, by which the police accept all crime reports at face value and seek to include in their crime figures every apparent criminal event that comes to their attention. The second approach is the more traditional one, termed the "evidential", whereby the police sift and evaluate those events reported to them and only in those cases where they believe on the basis of the known facts that a crime has actually taken place do the police then record a crime. ......the lack of consistency makes it impossible to compare forces in a reliable fashion."
http://www.justice.govt.nz/pubs/repo...section-7.html

**

And not only that there are other factors for example such figures don’t take into account local drives or crackdowns that may boost figures in certain areas. Encouraging rape victims to come forward (with such methods as granting animosity) can lead to higher rape figures, but in fact there has not been an increase in the number of rapes just the number being reported.

I’ve been told economic factors have an impact, higher unemployment leading to higher crime rates in those areas associated with financial gain, whereas high employment rates lead to more crimes related to drink as more people have the money to go out.

Demographics can have an effect as Susan Estrich says of the US “Eighteen years ago, the number of young men between the ages of 18 and 25 -- the prime crime years -- was set to decrease steadily for the next decade. Even if you did absolutely nothing, crime was likely to decrease because there would be fewer would-be criminals to engage in it”

The prevalence of insurance is another factor people are more likely to report criminal damage if that is what is needed to make a claim (and we saw how few people had such insurance in New Orleans).

Even the perceived efficiency of the police can be a factor. Some crime rates can be low because people think the police are useless and don’t report the crime but if the police become better at the job people do report those types of crime (again the crime rate hasn’t gone up just the reporting). This means that higher figures can actually point to a healthy and working system and low figures to a sick and dysfunctional system.

Even the prevalence of CCTV cameras can have an effect on crime, fight in bars that at one time were not reported or led to no conviction because of lack of evidence are now being captured on camera and as pointed out to me several times the UK has many more CCTV cameras than the US.

However there was one area that were it was less controversial when it came to comparisons (although it still depended on the countries being compared) and that was murder. Homicides are very much more likely to be reported when discovered and there is far less leeway in definition.

“In selected cases, most notably homicide, country to country comparisons are safer, although may still be subject to the drawbacks outlined above. In the case of some categories of violent crime - such as rape or assault - country to country comparisons may simply be unreliable and misleading.”
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/crime_cicp_surveys_3.html

 

OK having said that lets look at the figure you cite for violent crime - which was widely reported in the US with a comparison with US figures here is a comment on that

*

• [FONT=&quot]“In the UK there are 2,034 violent crimes per 100,000 people. …The US has a violent crime rate of 466 [violent] crimes per 100,000 residents.”[/FONT]

Some advice for Mr. Swann: when you see statistics that look unbelievable, you probably shouldn’t believe them, at least until you dig deeper into the data. Based on these figures, it appears that Britain is over 4 times more violent than the US, and since this is all he gives you, that is exactly what he leads his viewers to believe.
What Swann either doesn’t know, or simply doesn’t bother to tell his viewers, is that the definitions for “violent crime” are very different in the US and Britain, and the methodologies of the two statistics he cites are also different. (He probably simply doesn’t realize this: it appears that he lifted his data wholesale from a story in the Daily Mail, without checking it–something you might expect a fact checker to have done.)
First, it should be noted that the figures Swann gives are out of date: in 2010, according to the FBI, the reported rate of violent crime in the US was 403 incidents per 100,000 people–the 466 figure comes from 2007. Second, and more importantly, the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports defines a “violent crime” as one of four specific offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault.
The British Home Office, by contrast, has a substantially different definition of violent crime. The British definition includes all “crimes against the person,” including simple assaults, all robberies, and all “sexual offenses,” as opposed to the FBI, which only counts aggravated assaults and “forcible rapes.”
When you look at how this changes the meaning of “violent crime,” it becomes clear how misleading it is to compare rates of violent crime in the US and the UK. You’re simply comparing two different sets of crimes. In 2009/10, for instance (annual data is from September to September), British police recorded 871,712 crimes against persons, 54,509 sexual offenses, and 75,101 robberies in England and Wales. Based on the 2010 population of 55.6 million, this gives a staggeringly high violent crime rate of 1,797 offenses per 100,00 people.
But of the 871,000 crimes against the person, less than half (401,000) involved any actual injury. The remainder were mostly crimes like simple assault without injury, harassment, “possession of an article with a blade or point,” and causing “public fear, alarm, or distress.” And of the 54,000 sexual offenses, only a quarter (15,000) were rapes. This makes it abundantly clear that the naive comparison of crime rates either wildly overstates the amount of violence in the UK or wildly understates it in the US.
Due to fundamental differences in how crime is recorded and categorized, it’s impossible to compute exactly what the British violent crime rate would be if it were calculated the way the FBI does it, but if we must compare the two, my best estimate‡ would be something like 776 violent crimes per 100,000 people. While this is still substantially higher than the rate in the United States, it’s nowhere near the 2,034 cited by Swann and the Mail.
http://blog.skepticallibertarian.co...e-uk-really-5-times-more-violent-than-the-us/

I actually think that his figure of 776 is a bit on the high side but there you go.