the Usda wants the taxpayer to buy them GUNS

There never has been and their never could be a ‘free market’

That is the fundamental flaw of free market thinking

That is why such ideologies are basically utopian in outlook – in an ideal world, my ideal theories, would work ideally – the problem is that we have to live in the real world not in a hoped for fantasy.

 

25

This is the same old bitching - we all know them by now – and maybe people agree with you on some to one degree or other - it’s just that we disagree with your solutions.

To repeat - The criticisms levelled at those supposed solutions are that they would seem to be all about giving greater power and influence to wealth – been about amongst other things - little or no taxes, little or no regulations on the pursuit of profit, little or no welfare and a government that’s main concern would be the protection of property and wealth.

 

Thank you, captain obvious.
Everyone knows human nature would never allow for a free market. Or a pure command economy. You're just being pious.

Oh jeez it's not like leftist/socialists aren't guilty of the exact same thing as you guys advertise your ideas as a workers' paradise in your own fantasy world.

 

This is "animalistic" law; i don't believe Human beings, are like animals in that way. IE I'm powerful enough to beat up my best, i'm powerful enough to shoot my gun.

as humans, we have a decision making process, we don't do things merely because we are "powerful" enough to...

What you're insinuating here, is that people are evil and corrupt by nature, and, government is a reflection of that.

however, we still "need" government, to protect us from animalistic-human nature, which compels us to run around hurting people, because it is in our nature.

imo, this is just an excuse for government. People are not like animals, because, we have our own code of morality. IE in nature, it is not wrong to have unconsentual sex, or, kill another animal.

But people, understand these things are immoral, and a majority of people, don't do it. I think, people who do decide to commit a crime, has a thought process, that goes through their mind, unlike any other animal. It isn't governmental laws that makes people reconsider, but many times, it's hurting other people.

I'm personally very empathic, and wouldn't want to hurt anyone. This is why I strongly disagree with this theory, because you're telling me, we as people do things because we can, basically, and, I don't think that is true Human Nature.

I don't wonder "why" they are, I just wonder why we keep electing sociopaths...

Besides that, who exactly are we talking about? cause I know some of you Liberals don't like any rich person...

I think it should be considered bribery...

2 things: 1- I personally don't think, we need more government laws, to fix the bad ones we already have. second, bribery has been going on before campaign finances were legal, (this is why I don't think 'ending it' would work) But, I do think people should do a little research, and not support anyone who's sponsored by elite banks IE Bush, Obama, Romney etc..

Bribery is not legal, btw. P.a.c's are not punished, because the military-industrial complex has created this system, of controlling politicians..

http://bribery.uslegal.com/federal-laws-on-bribery/

well, it's a paper that's owned by the bankers, and printed at will. That's a big part of why the wealth is going to the top 1%.

but, my point is, that without government, industries wouldn't have so much power to begin with. Why? because instead of bribing the government to turn a blind eye, when the power is in the hands of each and every individual, corporations become more liable to the citizens, and less to the government.

Moreover, about 1/2 of our tax money just maintains the government. When the government does something, instead of the free market, you're forced to pay overhead, employees and, utilities. With corporations, you only pay them, once they've produced and developed a product you like, and choose to buy. There's a big difference.

Unfortunately, that's not entirely true.

The companies/contractors in the military-industrial Complex, have learned to profit from war, and the destruction war causes. These same industries played both sides in the cold war.

once i realized this, the US government policy and reason for endless war, became alot clearer.

and btw, a doctor, who was a major proponent of obama said 'it once was much easier to govern 1 million people rather than kill them. But today, it is infinitely easier to kill 1 million people, than to govern them'


I think this is because today, people are much more moral and civil than in past centuries. They needed to push a Liberal/Communistic agenda, I believe, as an attempt to keep faith in government, and, expand their influence...

 

Which Dr said that? I can't find the quote. Thanks.

 

Here is a quote from another thread by Okiefreak;

 

You are correct at a general premise I am saying people are still animals at their very nature, clothed with various cultural rationalizations and doctrines (capitalism, communism, herd-mentality thinking, religion).

I say this because I see people voting, dating, and making every day daily decisions on what they buy, not necessarily on logic, but on emotion. That isn't neo-cortex talking that makes humans distinct from other animals, that's the limbic-brain talking.

Humans certainly have the capacity to progress, but they make all these issues so personal and every debate gets locked-down. That's why racism took a couple 100's to even get whittled down to a politically-incorrect view today; it's not eradicated, but it is significantly reduced.

I don't completely disagree with your views about the grid-lock the military-industrial complex has created on our society, but I also want to add that not all companies are military complexes profitability only. There is a huge, commercial market, (blenders, dryers, batteries, toys, cars) that is also a large revenue stream that is more long-term for businesses to profit from.

That's kinda of the premise behind why the 1950-60's were really a golden age for business expansion, because of the fact that cars let people spend at greater geographic distances.


You take a depopulation strategy, you assert this "shadow government" has, and companies (the rich top CEO's and their families) seriously hurt their long term investment strategy because it's directly tied into the demand for consumer goods, not just war related goods.


---

Also look at the Iraq war, I bet you that the corporate interests wanted those oil fields, and back in the mid-2000-2010's years, the American people were sold on that war that "it would pay for itself in oil", but that didn't come to pass in fact it cost the country's overall budget more, than any individual or corporation profited from because there was no new product to sell.

If any profit was made, it was a shell game of fraud. Money is only as good as the services, or product that it backs.


In your case, you keep citing the Gold standard, but it's also not practical to expect individuals to carry around gold coins in their day to day transactions. Even on an institutional level, it's hard to transport and costly to transport that much hard metal.

That's part of the reason we went to a fiat $ system, based on credit. The outrage though, is that recently as of the last 25 years, bankers have OVER leveraged at a mathematical dangerous ratio of what the system can manage, and you end up having these super toxic, risky, investment bubbles that threaten to topple to whole financial system.

In a nutshell that's greed, pride, and selfishness and in my humble opinion that's the definition of evil.

---

Now you ask why sociopaths, seem to always gain footing in jobs of high society (politicans, lobbyists, CEO or board member bankers)


It's because capitalism, in the business world creates a cutthroat culture as a by-product of the competition between businesses, that classical economics says is a good thing for driving costs down.

The problem is, at a certain point, rivals cease and a few big name brands emerge, and this is the failure of capitalism because this little glitch wasn't foreseen, in practice. In a utopia, it is easy to argue that some new guy will come along and sub-plant the giants in the oligopoly, but it rare if ever happens that way.

They get bought out, or a court case happens claiming patent infringement and a fledgling mom and pop shop, gets sued.

The Patent office, is always something that was argued HELPS classical capitalism/economics to encourage entrepreneurship (you own your ideas you invent).


Sociopaths thrive in such an environment, because being cutthroat for short term survival of business they are managing, are easy for them to do, they have no guilt doing immoral things if they conclude an immediate benefit from it or if they think they have enough power to get away with it.

When a culture puts the "rich" on a high pedestal of what it means to be successful, sociopathic individuals see success as staying at the top and that wealth = the meaning of life = getting people to do what you want.

 

25

Again there seems to be this contradiction between what you claim you want and the ways in which you want to bring it about – your solution would seem to be about making a bad situation worse rather than better.

I really think you need to hold up your utopian vision up to the light of reality, you may then understand the criticisms of your solution rather than you vision.

 

coffee

“Glad to be of service citizen” [chin up, my cape fluttering behind me]

This may seem obvious to you and me but some still seem to be pushing the argument – ‘But everything would be fixed if we had a free market’

Try reading - Free market = plutocratic tyranny.
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=353336&f=36

 

25

I know my question is boring but could you respond? Re: Dr quote

 

Monkir

I nodded at this when I read it and then I thought – but they are doing that – they are hurting the society through limiting demand.

I mean over the last thirty years the real term incomes of many middle and lower class people have stagnated or fallen and many only kept up their standard of living through getting into debt, a bubble that burst with the financial crisis.

Such debt is ultimately unsustainable and shouldn’t be allowed to happen again*

Many others are working but needing public assistance to survive (government subsidizing employers).

But as pointed out by Robert Reich if the middle and lower classes “don't have enough purchasing power because they're not paid enough, companies won't create more jobs and the economy won't grow”
The dominant ideology is all about profit and that involves keeping overheads down and wages as low as possible.

Take outsourcing for example this meant that the price of some goods have fallen making it seem for those that could afford them that their living standards were remaining the same with their flat screen TVs or iPads life seemed ‘better’ but for others these things were beyond their budget and worse still they may have lost their jobs in the factories that made those goods.

But as said many brought those goods through credit and many will not (or cannot) do that again while wages for those in the middle and at the bottom continue to be squeezed and so the number of consumers keeps going down.

*
But as you ask - why would those in control of corporation do that, aren’t they slitting their own throats?

(1)

Well the dominant ideology is very short termist in its thinking. It can be about the next quarter’s profits rather than what the consequences of what was done to get those profits might be in one year’s time – we saw that mentality before the last financial crisis (companies leveraged up to the eyeballs and people selling mortgages to those they knew would be able to keep up the payments, amongst a whole load of other things)

(2)

The other thing is are they slitting their throats? Many of the top executive in charge before the crash and help bring it about are still rich (and many are still working).

“Most of the company’s [Lehman Brothers] top executives found lucrative jobs elsewhere on Wall Street. Many went to work for Barclays (BCS), which bought much of Lehman’s U.S. banking business out of bankruptcy. Lehman’s president, Bart McDade, and a top trader, Alex Kirk, founded investment firm River Birch Capital. George Walker, who ran Neuberger Berman, Lehman’s wealth management division, has continued to do so”

Richard Fuld is I believe doing little work but remember he was paid huge sums before the fall [$34 million in total compensation in 2007]

And please read about James (Jimmy) Cayne head of Bears Stearns
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=8002202&postcount=31

(3)

Another thing is that they may calculate that they can move on – I mean by the time that America has been squeezed dry they could be selling to the rising Chinese middle classes.

*

*Worryingly it seems that household debt is rising again in the US “Household debt increased 2.1 percent, or $241 billion, to $11.52 trillion, the biggest gain since the third quarter of 2007, the report showed. The level of debt last quarter was $180 billion higher than a year earlier”

 

Yes, and I believe that is the governments will; to make us apathetic, self centered and, uncaring, so they could continue to wage endless wars, and spy on citizens.

Do you know which side of the brain we use when we watch TV?

I agree that a majority of people are like this today, but, it's only Human nature to a degree. Yes, people will get mad, and fight over stupid shit. But, I think if someone is hurting someone else, the punishment should fit the crime. and, I believe the drug laws are just the government way of making shitloads of extra money, and supporting the Cia in overthrowing democratically-elected leaders, and replacing them with dictators.

I don't believe government can change peoples minds. But, I will say, that alot of that racism, including the film "The Birth of a Nation," was pushed by corporate interests, and the only reason we had to change the law and situations, is because the law was actually keeping us seperated, so we couldn't realize that people are people, regardless of color.

Hitler, the french revolution, the Federal Reserve and, Karl Marx, was all sponsored by the same bankers behind Obama

The way I feel about that is, if they're not ripping off the taxpayer, or damaging anyone's property, they're free to keep the money they earned. But, I believe when government is involved, they spend too much money.

But look, those in the military-industrial complex, are more tighly tied to government, than anyone. The Oil industries, arms dealers, big bankers and, others- They don't care to cause damage anywhere; They could always make China the new consumer economy. These industries control nearly every country. Countries who wont play along are called "regimes" and executed, before the US citizens even realize what's going on.

Profit was made by the elite. It disgusts me to say, but, when we attacked Iraq, they accepted a deal to trade their oil for food and humanitarian resources. Yeah, we went their partially for oil, just like we went to afghanistan partially for opium. But, I think it's to scare everyone into submission with the UN, and other such organizations, which are just corporate tools, for making world decisions.

90% of the world is controlled by bankers like the Rothechild's and the Rockefellers . The former has so much money, it could END world hunger. I don't believe in the redistribtution of wealth, but with regards to businesses who made money through the taxpayer, I think every dime, or as much as Humanly possible, should be returned to those taxpayers

Gold is worth so much, you wouldn't need to carry coins. an ounce of gold is about 2 grand right now. I've seen innovative ideas, with using precious metals for trade...

https://shiresilver.com/product/silver_five_gram_card

Or, you can go back to money, that was based on gold, and, you can get your gold back

well, I think the banks are evil con artists too. But again, I don't think they'd be making risky investments, if the government wasn't there to bail them out. People are much more caring about money they actually earn, rather than money they're embezzling from the people and government. Banks are the most corrupt, and anyone who has made their living from the taxpayer, should return any/all money humanly possible.


Moreover, if they couldn't print money, and loan out 10X what they actually have, they'd be forced to play fair or, shut down. They would've been bankrupt in the freemarket too, remember. It is government, who gave them enough money to buy out their competitors.

The significance here is that Wamu and other such banks, had better customer services than Bank of america, Chase, or, any other such competitor. So, there is a good chance, that Wamu could own chase. It was the government using tax payer money to fix this, then, Liberals turn and say that my views help corporations. But, there is nothing they want more, and nothing that could help them more, than a centralized system of violence.

Well, we don't live under a pure capitalistic system, so we really can't say. Even some corporations that don't take government contracts, can profit off of the governments policies. The banks, oil industry and arms dealers profit from the government the most, however, so do pharmaceutical companies and Drug Cartels, as this is where the BIG money is. But, it's only big money due to their own laws.

What I'm saying is, I believe the government (and the top .01% of 'earners') are actually just profiting from a world state of disarray, (including the 'Black Market,' which again, was created as a result of their crazy laws worldwide.

Besides, I said "Why do we elect sociopaths?" I was talking about people, who can smile in our face while they take away our Rights, kill citizens then, wage war on other countries for "killing citizens." To me, it's a dog and pony show; anything to keep people distracted while nothing of significance is tackled, and they continue robbing us for our own enslavement.

My problem with what you're saying is, I believe to a degree, names serve a purpose. Kellogg's must not have patented "Frosted Flakes," because the store I work at sells a "Frosted Flakes" from another company, with a white lion, with a face that is identical to "Tony the Tiger." My problem with that, is, they're sort of feeding off of other peoples success. To be completely honest, as humans, we derive most of our ideas from something we've seen before. But, idk, to take the name and logo of a company, kinda is stealing property. It's like me showing you an idea for an invention, and you going and inventing it, (making the bulk of the money,)without my knowledge. Patents are just protection of that.

well, I think you're making the mistake of "all rich people." and, I also think it's wrong to think corporations would get away with this stuff, without government. Today, they just bribe the Epa, cia, fbi, Obama, congress and, even a large majority of the supreme court- I believe government is the root of the problem, because it is a corruptible system of force. Capitalism is much fairer than Communism btw (which was also pushed by the bankers.) Because, communism focuses wealth to Government, and their family/employees only. While, everyone else is working, just to eat.

The other thing is, you say "getting people to do what you want." How does one do that? through a Legal Centralized System of Force. This means, under government only. a corporation will not wage war without the government, or kill someone or even, allow a tainted product on the shelf. With the Power localized to the individual, the corporation is liable to anyone they harm, or anyone who gets harmed on their property.

So, I still feel the same way. I don't think more taxes and, more government is the answer. I still think the government should peaceably disassemble.

 

25

Yes we know - BUT you still want to have a government you just want one that protects wealth and property.

How is it going to protect that wealth and property?

How is this government going to be financed? (You have seemed to imply it would be through voluntary contributions – meaning those with large amounts of disposable wealth would be in control, a plutocracy)

As already pointed out

Many right wing libertarian's seem to think in terms of punishment as a deterrent rather than prevention - as a way of lessening harm.

So to them it is about prosecuting the perpetrator afterwards for fraud or negligence rather than having the mechanisms in place to check and see if fraud or negligence is taking place.

So the ‘market’ is deregulated but if people act ‘fraudulently’ then they get prosecuted but if there is no regulation something that is detrimental to society may take place but which isn’t actually against the law.

Government agencies that are charged with the reducing and investigating harm to people and the environment for example would be disbanded, individuals would have to do any investigating and forensics’ in their own time and at their own expense and then go up in court as an individual against a company or corporation.

So let us say a factory has no appropriate means of fighting a fire and the management has locked the exists (to prevent let’s say unauthorised breaks) and a fire happens and over a hundred people die.

Many right wing libertarians seemed to have the idea that the management would be severally punished to deter other owners from doing the same.
Of course in the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory case where 146 workers died the owners got off, they even made money from the ‘accident’. .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triang...ces_and_legacy

We know – BUT you still refuse to address the many outstanding criticisms of this idea – that it would seem to give greater power and influence to wealth – been about amongst other things - little or no taxes, little or no regulations on the pursuit of profit, little or no welfare and a government that’s main concern would be the protection of property and wealth.

 

odon Brzezinski, is his name.

 

Hi 25 I notice you are around

You said -

How would you do that?

Who would demand it's return?

What if they refused to do it?

[edit] Have you examples of businesses you mean?

 

Thanks. I found it when I looked a little harder. I take it you are "Just sayin'" ... You are not suggesting he wanted the death of millions of people, right?

 

You're missing the point entirely. If it's voluntary, it's not government. Government Forces it's will unto people, if someone wants to pay security agencies, that's fine. But, my ultimate goal is a voluntary society, without government.

and since there is no government, no one can tell me what I can or can't put in my body, or steal my money, and put it toward bailing out and benefiting the corporations. There's peaceful and logical ways (without the use of force) to take care of any problems.

Roads can be built by corporations, or, donations. Private industries actually do a higher quality job, with less time and price. Because, they don't have insane amounts of money, to sick into production like government


The only reason I talk about "small government," is because 99.999% of Liberals believe government is the only way to peace, despite the fact, that forcibly pushing your morality on someone, automatically imposes on everyone else's freedom.

I will say, there are certain laws in place for a reason. But, the mistake you're making is assuming that if corporations couldn't hurt anyone, or, their property that they'd still be running around free. It's really a joke.


I've said this, like a million times, but, you just cut all that out, and say; "You still failed to address my criticisms."

That's why I'm done having this argument. You just assume the rich would take over, yet, you can't even explain how, as they would actually have less power and control than they do today.

Today, corporations who have it in with our Government, are above pollution laws, lawsuits and, liability, yet, your criticism is that without all these Government benefits and protections, they would be more powerful.

That's not how it works. We've given the power of this land to government, and in turn, they have sold it to the highest bidder in sub-sections. It only makes sense logically, if the people equally had power, that society would become fairer, in that, you own yourself. Not some Monarch or, oligarch or, some arbitrary law written 200 years ago, or, yesterday- only you.

It is in everyone's best interest that way, to live together as free, independent Human Beings, without force.

That's not true at all.If you make a punishment severe enough, no one will want to do it. I've said I believe every dime of taxpayers money should be returned, which may bankrupt alot of industries, but idc, because it was wrongfully embezzled through racketeering policies, in connection with our Government. This, and endless wars for resources, threatens our freedom and security much greater than anything the government allegedly "protects us from"

Now, the Epa, fda and, other such agencies, are known to take bribes, and typically punish people with fines ONLY. Imo, this is even smaller than a deterrent, this is a partnership based in illegality.


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So, for the record you're saying government protects people from corporations?

what??


i think what you're saying is, somewhere down the line someone may find some type of loophole in the system, so it wont work.

when you compare it to an institutionalized system of force and violence, it actually makes alot of sense.

but, ok-I'll play
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bec[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ause they don't 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l[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]awsuit. 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progr[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ams 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over-glorified, I've pointed out 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in the US, 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been fined 100 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the wrong tree growing on their property. They [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]also allowed monsanto to patent their GMO seeds, and sue people when their seeds fall off of trucks, and grow in their property. This corporate state is caused[FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]al[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] by government- Therefore, they're not going to change it, or, fix it. It is imbedded in their policy.

and where was the federal government in all of this?
Moreover, they weren't punished at all, so obviously, that's not what I'm advocating. They should be liable for damages. But, no one can prevent every bad thing from happening. The best thing you can do is set an example out of businesses like these. Otherwise, they will continue to use their money and power against our interest. However, this can be done peacefully through aware consumers and, not through government force, and thousands of pages of regulations, written by the heads of those industries.

I don't think you're correct. I think it is contradictory to say they would have more power, without the power structure which they rely on to forcefully institute their power.

Secondly, you're trying to make protection of someones hard-earned money, as being the same thing as government bailouts for malinvestments, and it's not the same thing at all. yes, there are bad corporations out there, but Libertarianism is the only way,to punish the one's who are causing damage, without interfering with our freedom or, well-being.

the reason you keep repeating this same "criticism," is because you believe everything Government does is for the benefit of the people. However, if that were the case, you wouldn't need force to begin with, and people would love to "pay into the pot." The thing is, I, and others like myself, are starting to realize that when you do this, you're also supporting wars, insane laws meant to dictate our behavior and, expensive government programs, that get very little accomplished when compared to the extensive and, endless pricetag.


However, I understand why you keep avoiding these concise answers to your argument- it is easier than justifying Government, because, there is in fact no justification for the use of force, against non-violent people, so the scare tactic, that the world will fail to function without government, or, with a sm[FONT=Verdana]all government is [/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]a common one[/FONT][/FONT]. But, everything you associate as "Free market" is actu[FONT=Verdana]ally croney c[/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]apit[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]alism, with extensive Government benefits [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]and interference.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

I can't tell what he/they want. I know he's been involved with many White
House talks and policy decisions.

What I was saying, though, is I believe it's hard for them to govern us, because we're starting to realize, what freedom really is, and, what the Role of the Government should be in our lives. We're not as accepting to a system of force, that mediates behavior through spying and manipulation. This may only be a minority today, but, as an idea, it will spread to the majority eventually.

 

25

Ok these are all thing I or other have already covered but I will go through your post point my point and explain how you are NOT addresing the outstanding criticisms

That doesn’t make sense – this entity would adjudicate and create legal powers to protect property and wealth – but to you that isn’t governance – problem there is that it is.

As I’ve said if such a government is financed by voluntary contributions it would mean that those with the largest amounts of disposable wealth would basically be in control it would be a full on plutocracy.

In such a system any democratic element would have a lot of problems asserting itself and would most probably be chipped away at and eroded.

In the past that has just lead to private armies. Throughout history the wealthy (nobles and industry owners) have used such “security agencies” to try and keep the peasants and workers in place.

BUT there would be government – it would just be a government under the almost complete control of the wealthy.

In the past non-regulation of products has meant that things were put in drugs or food that you might not want or were harmful – that was why regulations were put in place.

If you mean tax cuts we have been through it at length and all your ideas would seem to advantage wealth more than anyone else.

I think wealth should be properly regulated and its influence curtailed and I’ve explained at length how and I’ve explained in detail why nearly everything about you system would seem to benefiting wealth, based as it is on little or no taxes, little or no regulations on the pursuit of profit, little or no welfare and a government that’s main concern would be the protection of property and wealth while being under its control.
As to bailouts I’ve said I prefer nationalisations.

Then can you please explain them - because so far all we’ve had is your assurance no real ideas.

As has been discussed – yes they can BUT that doesn’t mean they will.
Many infrastructure projects (such as road, canal and sewage systems etc) have been built by governments you cannot say they would have been done privately because they were not.

One moment you are pointing out how bad corporations are the next you say how good they are.

As has been debated at length private companies are about private profit not public service.

SO what is it ‘small government’ or ‘a voluntary society, without government´?

We have been through the whole ‘freedom’ thing before and as explained you definition of freedom seem to be based on Social Darwinist ideas of the ‘freedom’ to live or die (no welfare etc) which as explained seems to be about the ‘freedom’ of wealth to exploit the weaker.

What laws - and if wealth was in control of governance and the adjudication and creation of laws how wouldn’t they be in control?

Look above and you will see you are not addressing the criticisms you are just telling us you are right and we are wrong just telling us this or that would happen, because you believe it will does not address the flaws others see in those beliefs.

We have tried to explain our criticism – all you seem to do is tell us they are wrong – without putting up any rational counter argument.

I’ve done nothing else but explain why wealth is in a position of power at present and why I think your ideas would make that bad situation far worse.

I keep explain often at length and in detail why your ideas you would most likely give more power to wealth essentially - little or no taxes, little or no regulations on the pursuit of profit, little or no welfare and a government that’s main concern would be the protection of property and wealth.

BUT you are NOT getting rid of government you still want a government that protects wealth and property paid for by those with the means to pay for it. A place where the ‘police’ would be wealth sponsored ‘security agents’, and the judicial system would be funded through voluntary contributions.

The US has one of the highest execution rates in the world, the largest numbers of people in prison and one of the highest murder rates.

What punishment will this be?

In what way will it be severe?

To repeat

How would you do that?

Who would demand it be returned?

What if they refused to do it?

Have you examples of businesses you mean?

AGAIN you make accusations of bribery have you informed the police, can you produce your evidence?

AGAIN you might have some valid criticisms of government agencies, BUT it is your solution that is being criticized – your ideas seems to be to remove the agencies and the regulations and put the whole deterrent on the ability of people to go up against the corporations individually.

And to do that in a system where the ‘police’ are privately hire security, the government and courts are paid for by those with the available wealth to pay for it through voluntary contributions and where the courts have absolutely no power to enforce any judgment if guilt is found but the guilty person or entity refuses to be punished.

Under your system I don’t think they would have any fear of a lawsuit.

You so easily shrug off 146 preventable deaths – Thing is that although the employers got off (and even made a profit from the deaths) what did come from it was government legislation to try and prevent such a tragedy happening again “laws mandated better building access and egress, fireproofing requirements, the availability of fire extinguishers, the installation of alarm systems and automatic sprinklers, better eating and toilet facilities for workers, and limited the number of hours that women and children could work”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triang...ces_and_legacy

To repeat - IT IS NOT BLACK AND WHITE

It is not either loving everything any government does or hating everything a government does - to repeat AGAIN I’ve been a critic or governments in the general and the specific BUT my criticism of you is that your solutions would seem likely to make bad situations worse.

LOL - If you look above you will see that you give few answers to the criticism let alone concise ones

 

StpLSD25

Sounds a little like back-peddling to me, and removing the more alarmist tones...

Maybe. I doubt it, though. Not in our countries/lifetimes, anyway.
Obviously more and more people want accountability/transparency.
You chaps have been arguing the role of government in your lives for a few hundred years.
What new do you think will happen?
I highly doubt 'the government' will resort to murdering millions of people (which you were quite clearly insinuating)...