The Two Truths Doctrine

Discussion in 'Buddhism' started by Meagain, Jul 25, 2006.

  1. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    If you want to speak about information get your in-formation straight.
    Ultimate is a definition of what ultimate means. Reality is a definition of what reality means.
    They are two different meanings that mean nothing particular of each combined. They require additional preamble qualifications


    The abominable levitican cloth, a fabric made of unlike threads is an abomination, distortion of true clothing or the genuine garment of reality.

    I like speaking with you, I love sharing our thoughts.
     
  2. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    Now I would love to be informed by you.
    Undo what I have done here. You can't construct again for me the confusion I have already undone.
    Tear me a new one Meagain, thrill to your spontaneous understanding.
     
  3. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Ultimate:
    Real:
    Ultimate Reality: occurring or existing in actuality and incapable of further analysis, division, or separation.

    Other than that I have no idea what you are talking about.
     
  4. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    @ MeAgain: How does one come about this concept which cannot, by definition, be conceived of?

    Is there anything gleaned from our relative truth, that would lead us to conclude there is an ultimate truth?

    As it's laid out, perhaps coming to the same realizations in regards to polarities. For instance, maybe we see defying and assisting leading to the same outcome in a particular matter. Can you elaborate more, on the questions above?
     
  5. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    /they are two different definitions. Not the same when put together
     
  6. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    Okay what I mean is tell me what is wrong with my presentation. Pick what I said apart on the basis of it's merits. You are still trying to explain the confusion when offering the same definitions again.
    This is the lowdown that i am asking you to tear apart with your reason.

    "Start with one thing, a standard metric that we have different takes on.
    Reality is. No variation in the state of reality. A thing is either real or it does not exist.
    It seems you are trying to firmly account for the subjective experience by saying it is less than real or relatively real.
    What is reality, information. Every informational bit of reality is every bit informed.
    We are relatively informed. which does not mean less than informed. It means we are informed through relationship and are increasingly informed as we expand our relationships. Never in any part of this are we less than informed, or information less.
    What is it to be informed, in the know. What is knowledge, being shared. to be bit by bit informed is perception.
    Truth is relative in that it requires comparison and true terms are, same, different, or purposeful. You are the arbiter of truth if you arbitrate on true terms. If truth is a qualification then no one qualifies".
     
  7. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    1. An axiom or postulate is a premise or starting point of reasoning. As classically conceived, an axiom is a premise so evident as to be accepted as true without controversy. The word comes from the Greek axíōma (ἀξίωμα) 'that which is thought worthy or fit' or 'that which commends itself as evident.'
     
  8. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    I'll have to get back to this, I'll be gone for a few days.

    See what you can guys can work out in the meanwhile.
     
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  9. Monkey Boy

    Monkey Boy Senior Member

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    To thedope: True, there aren't two realities just one that can be seen as it is or in a relative way.
     
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  10. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    First let me state that Two Truths doctrine (Madhyamaka-school) originates very early in Buddhist thought and comes from to an early passage attributed to the Buddha that stresses "right view". Or seeing into the nature of the world correctly.

    To understand the concept of the Two Truths one first must understand the concept of Dependent Origination and Interdependency which very basically states that as everything has a cause, everything is relative, or related to everything else. Although it must also be understand that there is no "First Cause" as everything has a cause which arises, exists, and dissipates; so there can be no permanent existence of anything to give rise to a "First Cause".

    So as we exist and interact with the world, we see the result of causes, their effects; and by drawing distinctions, by concentrating on certain elements of those effects, we come to believe in their permanence. We view a thin slice of time as a permanent effect, or thing, and so come to conceive of things as permanent.

    These are all relative truths. It is true that cars exist, people exist, the sun and moon exist. But by understanding their interdependent nature we can see the impermanence of their existence and we realize that not only will they cease to exist in the future, but they also have no independent nature in the present.

    Understanding the nature of Relative Truth we can then project that understanding onto ourselves and see the interdependent nature of our own thoughts, concepts, emotions, desires, and even our own being. And the being of the world at large.

    Understanding Relative Truth leads to understanding Ultimate Truth.
     
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  11. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    A thing is both real and interdependent on other things. It is not either or.
    A table has reality, as I can interact with it, but can not exist on its own. As it is both real and reliant on other things, it has a dual nature, it stands on its own but yet is only a part of everything else, without which it can not exist.
     
  12. beyondtheastral

    beyondtheastral Member

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    Correct the ultimate truth transcends all – it is an undifferentiated unity without beginning or end.

    The Buddhists speak about this – however they are repeating what they have read - I have not heard any Budhist stand up and testify to having attained the state of Enlightenment
     
  13. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    There you go man!. only reality exists, what is not real does not exist.
    So i''ve straightened out that error.
    Now reasoning from that point...
     
  14. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    Who speaks for buddha,

    Where is buddha

    no bu8ddha

    no buddhism.

    Truth is[SIZE=14.4444446563721px] relative in that it requires comparison and true terms are, same, different, or purposeful.[/SIZE]

    Not true, unrecognized assumption.
    Provide your reasoning.
     
  15. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    Exchange between you and Meagain is known around coffee tables as gossip

    I am in it and it is in me
     
  16. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    The term Enlightenment is a translation of several Eastern words and concepts, so to label oneself as Enlightened may be misleading.

     
  17. beyondtheastral

    beyondtheastral Member

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    "The term Enlightenment is a translation of several Eastern words and concepts, so to label oneself as Enlightened may be misleading."

    Correct there are many interpretations - A Buddhist could say I am Enlightened as defined by Buddha - regardless of the terminology I have not many any Buddhist that speak about attaining phenomenal states of consciousness and having the ability to guide other their.

    I like the Suzuki quote - that is so true
     
  18. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    Everybody be shit talkin
     
  19. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    Who speaks for buddha

    No buddha

    No buddhism
     
  20. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    Rare thing for me to post a quote from a Buddhist source, but here's one:

    from 'The Finger Pointing at the Moon' (Chi Yueh Lu). Translated by Lu K'uan Yu.


    In the hall the master (Lin Chi) said to the assembly "In your heart, there is a true man of no fixed position who comes in and goes out through your forehead; I urge those who have not experienced this, to try to see it."

    A monk came forward asking "What is a true man of no fixed position?"

    Descending from his meditation bed, the master grasped him ordering "Speak! Speak!"

    As the monk hesitated to reply, the master pushed him away, saying "Is the true man of no fixed position such a toilet stick?"

    He then returned to the abbot's room.
     

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