The selfishness of childbirth

old people without cynicism scare me.

 

Parenting is pleasure seeking? I take it you've never been woken up every two hours every night for months/years on end. Kids are actually quite a drain--physically, emotionally, financially, maritally....Yet most would agree that they were worth it. Why? Because (good) parenting is accepting the fact that the world does NOT revolve around you and your wants and desires. What's wrong with that? It doesn't mean I think that most people are cut out for it--anywhere from 40-50% of parents shouldn't be parents, imo.

But that doesn't take away from the people who become parents because they genuinely want to give another person a fighting chance at happiness. That's why I want to be one, anyway. I've always wanted to adopt too, so it's not like I care if he/she looks like me or not. I just had an awesome childhood and want to give that to someone else if I can.

Life is full of uncertainties, and horrible, horrible things. That doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile. Some people get suicidal (myself included, in the past), but hopefully, they work through it and come out of it a stronger person.

BTW...I don't get why so many people seem to hate kids nowadays. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the world should revolve around them, and I don't think you should have them if you don't want any. But why hate that other people have them? Why not hate old people? Or people in their 40s? They're just people at a certain stage of life, the same one we were all in at some point.

 

Parenthood is not pleasure seeking behavior at all lol.

I understand your point. The world is overpopulated, the world is full of misery and heartache, who would really want to bring a child into this world? etc etc...

But.....propagating the species is instinctual. Yes, people should be more responsible. No, people don't need to have 10 kids anymore because the human race is already a burden on the earth's resources. Yes, its a dog eat dog world and no kid is guaranteed a lifetime of happiness.

However, if everyone thought like that and no one had kids, the human race would die out.

Bringing children into this world should ideally be a decision made with responsibility and thought, but at the end of the day its something humans are instinctually driven to do.

You wouldn't call a dog selfish because it wants to mate when the bitch is in heat. Humans are animals too. We're animals that know about birth control and condoms, but we're still driven to keep the human race going.

If you think it sounds like he's describing an ice-cream cone I think its clear you haven't been around many children.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvPYXHM94DQ"]The Greatest Love of all (Live) - Whitney Houston - YouTube

 

I don't think you do understand my point. It sounds like we agree except i'm trying to point out that we overlay the reality of reproduction with the idea that everything parents do is for the child. If we let children understand what you are saying Meliai, the dominance of power relationships in life and role of instinct, instead of all this weepy compassionate shit inherited from theology, I think there would be less children expecting a lifetime of happiness and so less suicide, misery, confusion.

 

Were you a child that grew up expecting a lifetime of happiness? Is that the only thing you know?

Many parents also endure confusion and misery in raising children.

 

From birth we should raise them to believe it’s a cold, cruel world filled with murderers, rapists, and thieves :2thumbsup:

Hotwater

 

Okay maybe I don't understand what you're saying.

I wasn't really brought up in a family that focused on the negative aspects of life. We're not all hippie dippie, happy go lucky either. My family is stoic - we know life sucks major ass sometimes, but you just have to get through it and laugh when you can.

So I'm not really getting where you're coming from as far as children expecting happiness or expecting misery. I think there is a duality in life. It can be miserable, but the moments where life is wonderful outweigh the misery. I'm glad my mom made the selfish decision to bring me into this world just for the good moments I've been able to experience.

 

Interesting thread.

I was going to post more but decided against it.

 

i've never heard anyone talk like that. being a genuinely good parent, maybe, but not childbirth itself.

personally, i actually am quite happy that my mom birthed me.

 

My child is the best mistake I ever had.

 

(took it down-too childish)

 

I do wish I hadn't been born, and in a perverse way, I'm kinda glad that I can never have children. Although that is also tempered with a bitterness over the fact that I never had a choice in that regard. I'm sure I'd make a lousy parent anyway... lol

As for people wanting children for selfish reasons, I think that is definitely a reality. A lot of parents treat their kids more as trophies than as human beings, and expect them to be minature versions of themselves, rather than individuals. And can express disappointment or even worse if their child turns out to be too vastly different from how they envisioned.

All that a parent should want for their child is that they are happy, loved, and are not harming anyone else, and they themselves, are not coming to harm. Any parent who expects more from their child are selfish, and expect their child to live their lives more for the parents' wants and needs, rather than their own.

 

I really can't condemn you Walsh because you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Still, Like Rush Limbaugh it really would be better to just shut up when you are blatantly ignorant on a topic. All seven of my kids came from worlds of hell from their birth familys. Now grown men they have become caring and loving father's. Depite their own rough start they seem real happy to be here.

I think Stinkfoot hit it dead on with you wanting a flame war. Frankly though you aren't worth it. Stay away from kids though, your attitude is as damaging as any other type of abuse.

 

This thread isn't about what you seem to think it is about. I have no dispute that children with rough starts can grow up happy, people can be good parents, mothers can do a good job raising kids etc. It's about how society views the motivation for childbirth. I'm not attacking you, and am puzzled why you think you're being attacked - it's obviously to do with your background having had 7 kids, but I can't figure out what.

 

The discussion began as a blanket indictment of "everyone" making something of child bearing that I'm not sure I can agree is a universal viewpoint. Whether or not I agree that bringing a child in the world is a completely selfish act is immaterial as we're delving into opinions and it was clear that anyone differing with yours was not very likely to move your stated viewpoint... but this latest posts seems a bit of a reframing of the topic to suit a response to a post that you are choosing to differ with (your prerogative)

You claimed that having a baby is a completely selfish act. this is something you're choosing to attribute to every single biological parent and not to "society". Reframing the discussion as an observation of the group as a whole was not how you chose to introduce this steaming bit of bait. I see yarapario as commenting on your attributing a selfish motive to each and every individual parent out there when you can't have possibly confirmed your assumption. Sometimes the most selfish act would be to abort the pregnancy because proper parenting involves the continual act of setting one's own selfish desires aside for the sake of a child... and if for example the child was not planned then in a way the act of following through would be an act of selflessness.

That is how some will see it but I have little doubt that you will disagree. That is your freedom.

 

Yarapario posted a reasonable post. I,of course reacted like a kid,as I sometimes do. I don't like people insinuating I spout religious thought. ooooooo-I'm much better now.

 

I don't disagree, I just think you're doing the reframing here.

Look at my first line - it's not about my view but attacking the view of the majority. I don't claim to understand the entire community of birthgivers throughout history - how could I?

Okay, perhaps I was a bit too strong in my OP but I honestly didn't seek to construct an ideology of selfishness around birth, but rather to demolish the view that already exists - that parenting is a totally selfless act with noble goals and motivations. I realize it might have come across differently but hey, that's the problem with forums. If the OP constitutes 'baiting' anyone with those views, it would probably be impossible for me to make a post on this forum without baiting anyone.

 

Make up your mind- is it everybody or just a majority? These are your words. You started with a blanket statement that essentially stepped on the toes of everyone on this forum who happens to be a parent- you chose to characterize them unanimously as completely selfish- then you back ever so slightly down when I call you out on your shit but only in attempt to accuse me of reframing. I'm not and neither is anyone else. YOU are making the topic into a moving target to keep responses off balance perhaps assuming that people would be so embroiled in your latest response that engineers the other participants as being wrong that no one would bother to go back and read your opening post

I disagree... first with the notion that it's held as a completely selfless act. That is your premise- though the so-called "right to lifers" certainly bolster your argument but to characterize an entire society by the views of one political segment- which exploits the religious views of either a majority or a significant minority to further its own agenda reflects an apparent unwillingness on your part to see people outside simplistic definitions offered by parties who stand to gain more from society remaining divided against itself. You didn't demolish anything and I question whether that really was your objective- apart from demolishing any civility that people experience here.

Choosing to paint the members here with a paintbrush dipped in the toxic hues of conservatism and fundamentalist Christianity suggests that you just wanted to whip the hippies into a frenzy for your entertainment.

I reframed nothing.

 

I think the idea that parenting is always a totally selfless act, is just as outlandish as it would be to suggest that all parents are selfish by having them. Because of my own personal experience, I have a very cynical view of this issue. But even so, like most things on this Earth, it's not a black and white issue. Some people are good parents, and some are awful parents, that's just the way of the world. However, I think the difference is, a lot of people, especially many parents themselves, see nothing wrong with wishing to live out their own ambitions through their children. Or expecting them to be almost carbon copies of themselves and express disappointment if they are not. I though, see plenty wrong with that.

 

The buck stops HERE!!! I'm ending the vicious cycle that is my family, I would never ever in a million years have a kid. I'm very impatient, bitchy, I have terrible anxiety all the time that I can never seem to get rid of and my family has bad genes. Also I don't have enough money to give a child the life it deserves, I honestly don't think anyone can in this fucked up world we live in.