The Real God

So why can't you move on? I think we've all made this association growing up in the 20th/21st century. All of our minds being with rational thoughts vs Christian ideals carried on from our parents, even more from our grandparents. Who were the last real American fundamental Christians.

Animals can make a rational decision. You think a dog would take the path around the water to the food, because it can get there faster, and it won't have to get wet unless it has to. This is a rational decision. So then you think mans brain is only capable of that of an animal? Love and hate are just sickness, and its all just fear relative to the situation? Is that your rational Idea. Occam what is humanitys base ignorance? Is it pasting labels to the unknown? Bringing them into reason and logic. This is the very essence of the term LOGIC, LOGOS. Without this ability humans have to label things for faster recall and easier understanding we won't have Logic. Logic only exists as a means of processing information. As for probability, break that down it goes to probable, then to prove from the latin propare "to test". With an archaic definition saying learning through experience.

This is where that faulteres. Is it not possible for god to be learned through experience? This is the very aspect of the Gnostic belief system that is important. It is about EXPERIENCING GOD AND TRANSFORMING YOURSELF PROVING ONLY TO YOURSELF THAT GOD EXISTS. Thats all that matters. This puts you on a higher plane than the people of blind faith and those who aren't "in the know".

As for this, "can a smaller container EVER contain a larger one?"

Of course not, but that doesn't mean that can't contain the same essense.
A small container of soup, can be the same soup as in the larger one.
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT IM TRYING TO SAY. OF course you can't substiute a large container with the small one, BUT YOU CAN FILL THE SMALL ONE WITH THE SAME SHIT.

Occam Id like to hear from you why you refer to yourself in the third person, I may have missed the post on another thread but Ill check back here to make sure.

 

Its really not. There isn't any cognitive or reasoning function with the brain of a dog. A dogs sense of smell would direct it along the ground to the food and that would be the only explanation. It would also never suffice to say the dog could make a conscious association between anything in this scenario.

 

Besides that, does the rest of the argument not make sense?

 

Miles away

Yah.. dogs have a limmited neocortex. [Thus no abillity to think in concepts.and little self awareness or temporal awareness]
Their lymbic minds however are well developed and they have long
emotional memory. They are emotional creatures that show their lack of
reason by the blind loyalty they have for us while we give them only a fraction of that in return
Yet
Occam has met humans who life lymbic mind lives. [little use of neocortex]
And they are called thinking beings. So lets not under-rate the dog.
[our greatest natural ally on earth]

Occam

 

r33

Not when terms like 'higher plane' are used.
To occam that means an aircraft which has greater altitude ASL
than another.
Does it mean one who is less ignorant than another?
Then ignorance IS a BIG factor...no?
And 'experiencing god'
What is that.?

Occam

 

eating mushrooms

that is experiencing god to me

the fact your are having a spiritual experience from a substance that exists because the spore can withstand the pressure of coming from space (maybe on a meteor?) and the forces involved when an object is entering our atmosphere. (picture the space shuttle entering orbit)

If I know one thing its that mushrooms have been part of mankinds culture since recorded history, if not longer. Maybe a clan of monkeys stumbled upon a certain breed of mushrooms one day and that is the cause of our mental evolution, and this god that we talk about is merely the energy you feel when your having a trip. If you've ever ingested psylocibin mushrooms you know what im talking about.

 

r33

LOL..sorry but occam found LSD more potent.
And wished for a trip to mexico for a peyote button or two.
But age has mellowed him some. So wild turkey and some home grown is
the options he takes now. But not too often.

Never saw god. Maybe he was at a board meeting or some such.
Occam imagines omnipotence a heavy load
or maybe
"Power corrupts. But absolute power is pretty neat."

Occam

 

Terrance Mckenna says LSD cant be compared to a drug (psylocibin) that has evolved over millions of years compared to a man-made substance that the human mind doesnt naturally recognize.

I'm reading The Archaic Revival by Mckenna right now, and I can only count the days until my next mushroom journey, so can experience the Gnosis that him, Jung, and the original teachings of Christ speak so highly of.

 

there are many kinds of experiences one can have. it is possible to experience the feeling of being in the pressence of something, even the same kind of feeling you get from physical huggs, without tangably seeing anything tangably, materialy there. it does not require neurotropic substances to do this. if it did i would question that anything else by their effects were being experienced. but since it is possible to experience this without them, i suppose it must also be possible to experience it with them.

i question that they enhance anything but the immagination and that short term at the expense of the long term.

btw refer guy with the leet name, that sig pic pretty thouroughly depects my perceptions of current u.s. political reality. who the real players are and the primacy of their influence.

=^^=
.../\...

 

Me miles away I wasn't talking scientific, I meant we view this as a rational decision. It makes sense a god wouldn't go trhough water when it can go around. How do you know what a god processes? Except for applying what we know about a scenario and testing it on the dog. Can you really trust what science knows about a gods brain? I actually tested this with my dog I let it know I had a treat, jumped a stream it could not cross. It looked and sniffed around for a while, then looked at me puzzled, and then sniffed around for another way. It obvious can think in reason, the fact that it would rather not get wet than have the treat. Since my dog is a wuss that only goes up to its knees in water, maybe it would be different for a different dog.


As for Occam you've never experienced ego death. Which is essential to finding god while tripping. Yet it doesn't have to be tripping Ego death almost always leads you to recognize a higher power. You can experience ego death in a near death experience, or traumatic event as well. Perhaps an embarrasing moment. If drugs don't take you to a higher plane, then where do they take you? I dunno man I've felt a connection with something higher than myself on numerous occasions, I dunno what to say. You just shut it out I think. I dunno how else I would explain the feeling.

 

Well to me the emotions involved are the same as hugs, but you have to agree that hugs and kisses won't take you to another realm of reality. Mushrooms are here for a reason, we just haven't accepted them as a means of gaining higher consciousness, no one has pioneered the steps of gaining this, unless of you course you study shamanism in Tibet and South America, but it has become associatied with poor low-class ethnicities and ancient, when really it has significant importance, psylocibin that is, we just haven't taken full advantage of that yet.

glad we share the same tastes when it comes to political satirism =p

 

o=occam
n=nimrod

Knock on door..

o: Come in.
n: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?

o: I told you once.
n: No you haven't.
o: Yes I have.
n: When?
o: Just now.
n: No you didn't.
o: Yes I did.
n: You didn't
o: I did!
n: You didn't!
o: I'm telling you I did!
n: You did not!!
o: Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
n: Oh, just the five minutes.
o: Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.
n: You most certainly did not.
o: Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you.
n: No you did not.
o: Yes I did.
n: No you didn't.
o: Yes I did.
n: No you didn't.
o: Yes I did.
n: No you didn't.
o: Yes I did.
n: You didn't.
o: Did.
n: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
o: Yes it is.
n: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
o: No it isn't.
n: It is!
o: It is not.
n: Look, you just contradicted me.
o: I did not.
n: Oh you did!!
o: No, no, no.
n: You did just then.
o: Nonsense!
n: Oh, this is futile!

o: No it isn't.

n: I came here for a good argument.
o: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
n: An argument isn't just contradiction.
o: It can be.
n: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
o: No it isn't.
n: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
o: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
n: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
o: Yes it is!
n: No it isn't!
o: Yes it is!

n: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)

o: No it isn't.
n: It is.
o: Not at all.
n: Now look.

o: (Rings bell) Good Morning.
n: What?
o: That's it. Good morning.
n: I was just getting interested.
o: Sorry, the five minutes is up.
n: That was never five minutes!
o: I'm afraid it was.
n: It wasn't.
Pause

o: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.
n: What?!
o: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.
n: Yes, but that was never five minutes, just now. Oh come on!
o: (Hums)
n: Look, this is ridiculous.
o: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
n: Oh, all right.
(pays money)
o: Thank you.
short pause

n: Well?
o: Well what?
n: That wasn't really five minutes, just now.
o: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.
n: I just paid!
o: No you didn't.
n: I DID!
o: No you didn't.
n: Look, I don't want to argue about that.
o: Well, you didn't pay.
n: Aha. If I didn't pay, why are you arguing? I Got you!

o: No you haven't.

n: Yes I have. If you're arguing, I must have paid.
o: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.
n: Oh I've had enough of this.

o: No you haven't.
n: Oh Shut up.

 

If I was nimrod I would have just smited you, seeing as how he was the first king of Babylon, and he was probably 15 ft tall, I mean c'mon, he killed a winged lion to show his followers how tough he was.

 

You speak in tongues my man, obviously you think in your own language, live in your own fantasy world of metaphors and referring to yourself in the 3rd person. You wannabe a robot just like your little icon. I guess this arguement is going nowhere, like all the other theism vs atheism threads.

 

feelings are feelings, theyre not found anywhere in reality, they are not detected by anyone but the person feeling them, and there is no way of gaguing a felt experience since the memory of an experience alters the very experience itself.
if you must expertience ego death to see god, does that not defy the fact that god is in fact meant to be everywhere and everything? should he not be visible at any point? if you need to take psychedelics to the point of egoloss to 'feel' god, what makes god different to all the other 'feelings' one gets from drugs that remove identity and construct? and what does it spell about what the perception of god actually is? the relinquishing of all perceived design or intent to a definate single power of more intricacy than can be conceived by man?

the mind cannot work unless it establishes power. if you have ego loss, the only logical sense would thus be that everything around you is a higher power than yourself, that you are now seein. so much so that it would be apparent the scale of the world around you is much deeper than what you perceive. it is definately logical for a human to interpret this as a 'higher' power, instead of then realising that power itself must be reinterpreted. that 'meaning', 'reason', 'control' 'casuality', these ideas must all be reassessed when taking drugs and perceiveing the world.

you cant make judgements about your world through feelings, or because you cant imagine things beyond the boundries of your experience. you also cant assume things within your boundry of experience have any more validility than those outside.

people take psychedelics and gain perception of meaning around them, and conclude that psychedelics came about for a reason. when teh fact that drugs can effect what meaning and reason you detect in the world shows the very flimsy and material nature of what thought and meaning is, and what feelings and perceptions are - when they can be directly altered by the addition of a simple chemical to your brain.

the Annanuki theory is quite a valid one to discuss and interpret, but unfortunately no one in this thread seems to have researched it much so its pointless to go into.

as for the value of gold, you might all be interested to know that current research is showing that gold and other precious metals came to earth from space and that they cannot actually form naturally under earth's conditions.

this adds momentous importance to gold in any extraterrestrial theories, for gold is therefor a limited resource around these parts, making it on the grandest scale, one of the most valuable material earth has to offer.

 

> <

 

So what would be your example of say getting feelings of connection to god when you get those chills hearing good music. Or a good idea, totally apart from drugs? What about talking a walkabout, spending a few days and nights totally submerged in nature eating nothing but bread and water? What about yoga and meditation, all these other aspects of divination besides shamanism.

Who says that your thinking logically at all when you experience ego death due to psychadelics as well. What is all this bullshit about rational and logical. Alot of the world is irrational and logical and out of order. As is your mind at points during a trip. The aspect that divines you from ego death is you free your mind. Your no longer thinking with your mind in control of your ego. Logic is bullshit its a lie, madeup to counter-act the forces of religion and free thought. The Logos is originally a term referring to the hebrew understanding of god, borrowed by the greeks and warped into a belief in reason. Logical thinking is doesn't always explain everything just like mathematics. They both can be proved wrong in their most basic of tenents. If in math there is an algebraic proof showing that 1=2 then how can you be satisfy with purley logic and modern ideas of rationality. An example of this can be seen in this post here. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154919

 

Stoner

Well said..
Occam attempts in day to day life, not to remove the ego, but to only
use it for what it is good for. Mainly, to simply exist as an individual
who wishes to understand this reality it has found itself in.
In the process of doing so. we discover billions of fellow beings
who seem to need to control and manipulate others.
To gain dominance over others and empower their egos.
To them, that seems to be the purpose of life.
They try to goad and insult others with words, to get the
target to engage so they can attempt to reduce anothers ego and
inflate their own.
An example of which appears on this very thread and others.

And personal use of LSD was restricted to perceptual experiment
Listening with headphones to shostakovitch or bartok while looking
into a variable strobe through closed eyelids...effects were stunning.

Occam

 

"the mind cannot work unless it establishes power"?

i must be missing something because i simply cannot see that at all.

seperately; by mind, are we meaning awairness, or the software that runs on the hardware of the brain, that the awairness uses?

=^^=
.../\...

 

your conclusion is just as credable as the one written in the bible...wich dosnt make your story any less ilogical