The Rat "I am willing to debate you" thread.

Lol typical Cynicall_Otter, I must be a person who thinks everyone is an evil Conservative who doesn't follow my Beliefs, there you go again demonizing someone you don't even know. I feel that the smarter of the parties is the Conservative Party but they have been Hijacked by HARDCORE liberals like Bush and Cheney, and of course these people are controlled by an even bigger force, but that's for another time. I don't think people are evil if they don't think 9/11 was an inside job, I just think they are ignorant and I feel sorry for them. The Mainstream media and all the propaganda has seeped into their heads and they are literally unable to accept the truth or even have enough of an open mind to even CONTEMPLATE it. Peole think I am trying to look smarter than them or make them feel stupid when I talk about this like I am all knowing, but they arent taking me the right way, I am trying to warn them and help them open their eyes to something their mind can't handle. If we expose 9/11 for what it really is we will also be changing so much more, we will change the way the world trusts governments and media, we will hange the ignorance of the world and will get people to open their minds to other possibilities in all realms of the world, just by exposing one occurence, this is why the movement is so important.

 

Angel

Remember that while my own view is that 9/11was a tragedy not a conspiracy that has never really been the issue with me in relation to Rat.

This being a politics forum my questions have been mainly over his political views, I wanted to know what politically he wanted people to do. So very early in our discussions I asked what political policies he believes need to be taken to tackle ‘the conspiracy’ he claims to be taking place.

You might say that his political views are not important but think about it, are FOX NEWS’ political views unimportant? People often have an agenda but I’m deeply suspicious of those people that claim they are unbiased but seem to have biased opinions. You like many (like myself) worry about the propaganda of the press and how they try to hide political spin behind claims of unbiased opinion.

The thing is that Rat seems to have politically biased opinions while claiming he hasn’t

I don’t hide my political opinions, I think there are very few people on these forums that hide their political viewpoint and non as purposely and as strongly as Rat.

Why?

**

“If we expose 9/11 for what it really is we will also be changing so much more, we will change the way the world trusts governments and media, we will change the ignorance of the world and will get people to open their minds to other possibilities in all realms of the world, just by exposing one occurence, this is why the movement is so important”

You want to change the world many people do and they have different agendas, remember Hitler wanted to change the world, the important question to me is what someone wants to change the world into.

If you want to change the world for the better that’s admirable but don’t we need to talk about it? I mean do we have to just accept that your intentions are for a better world? How do we know? Hitler told the German people he was leading them to glory those that asked questions were called idiots or morons (then later disappeared into concentration camps).

I think that it is better to question rather than to just accept.

All I want to do is talk about it?

That’s all I’m asking?

The problem is that Rat seems reluctant to talk about what he is working for, and when I’ve tried he has branded me a idiot and a moron.

He seems to have right wing views, for instance he is on record as saying he thinks the Republican party is too left wing. He seems to support right wing libertarian ideas, remember he was once a self declared libertarian but then retracted that when he found he could not defend libertarian ideas. But even after that while claiming to be neither of the left or right he has claimed that libertarianism has the only policies ‘the conspiracy’ fears and declared that of all political ideas he thinks that libertarianism is the best.

I’ve asked him if he supports libertarian ideas and he says he is not of the right or left so I’ve asked him to explain what his views are and he refuses.

Try it Angel, ask him what political ideas he has for the changed world you are working for?

Think about it for a moment, Rat is one of the most vocal people on these forums and one of his major themes is the stupidity of following left wing ideas, not because he can show they are wrong, but because they are an invention of ‘the conspiracy’.

Has he ever attacked right wing libertarian views?

NO

Right wing libertarianism would make the already rich and powerful, much more rich and powerful yet he claims he ‘the conspiracy’ is made up of the rich and powerful.

So why doesn’t he attack a political ideas that want to increase the power of the rich while he constantly attacks the left that really does want to limit the power of the rich?

**

Angel, ask yourself what are you fighting for, a better world or a worse one?

Then ask what you think Rat is fighting for?

Then ask yourself, why is it that - if it a better world he wants - that he seems so reluctant to talk about it?

I mean I begun this thread to discuss his political views not the content of his conspiracy theories but what political policies he thought were needed to tackle the problems as he saw them.

Why is it that 13 pages and 121 posts (and coming up to a year) later Rat still will not discuss them in any reasonable way?

 

You made a lot of good points but the thing is the corruption is so bad right now that we almost have to spend most of our time fighting that and trying to spread the truth and don't think about what comes after the corruption has been dismantled. There will always be corruption, and I think my views on the world is what we have right now could work, but we need educated people. The government couldn't be corrupt if everyone knew history and knew government's lie to their people on a massive scale. If we do that the world would be far from perfect but a lot better, that's all I' trying to do and it's not even that radical.

 

Wow, someone who could percieve the truth at first glance.

Refreshing.

 

Angel

The problem is that if you don’t make plans and try to keep to them and instead have a general goal and hope for the best, it has been show that more likely than not things can turn out changed but changed for the worse. Remember Hitler got into power because many Germans really did think he would change things for the better. To some he promised a return to law and order, to others he promised a socialist future where the workers would have more control, industrialist thought he supported them and would be good for business, and so on. Few of them actually read Mein Kampf or questioned Hitler’s ideas, they just wanted change. Those that did question Hitler were abused verbally then physically, then were marginalised, then eliminated. Those dreams of a change for the better ended in nightmare but by then Hitler had complete control.

I can give other examples (you could actually fill volumes with them from the ancient world right up to the modern era)

In the English Civil War some on the Parliamentary side, like the Levellers and the Diggers, wanted the state to be changed for the better, with wealth distribution, the end of censorship, religious freedom and the vote given to all adult men without regard of class or wealth. But many only had a vague ideas of what they wanted the goal was just to curb or replace the absolute power of a hereditary monarchy, they left others to decide on what came after.

The landed elite had their own plans, and with the help of a General and the willingness of many to allow them to decide, the elite were able to banish or execute the ‘radical’ leaders and stop the idea of a change for the better.

England remained a very inequitable and exploitative society for many years to come, the government had the right to censor what it saw as ‘subversive’ ideas, religious intolerance remained and voting rights for all men regardless of class or wealth only came about some 200 years later.

The outcome was that the lot of common men and women changed very little the wealthy elite for the most part got richer and the absolute monarchy of Charles I was replaced by the absolute dictatorship of Oliver Cromwell.

*

Many of the people caught up in the French Revolution also just wanted to get rid of the monarchical system. There were those that wanted something better but a faction got control that saw conspiracy everywhere and began executing many of those who had been the revolutions greatest supporters. (Thomas Paine who had gone to France to give the Revolution his support, only just missed being guillotined because of a clerical error).

In the political vacuum that followed a general rose to prominence. The outcome was that an absolute monarch was replaced by an absolute Emperor.

*

Angel and others like you want to change things for the better, I agree, I see that as noble. But I feel that you should be warned not to allow others the ability to turn a better future into something worse, by not thinking about and discussing what comes after. I would just hate to see that your efforts ended up – for example – replacing a US dominated by a right wing Neo-Con faction with a US dominated by an even more right wing libertarian faction.

 

Angel, you say people need to be educated and I agree with you. You say people should look out for the lies and I agree with you.

But most people agree that one of the best ways to lean about others views and ideas is through open and honest debate, of viewpoints and theories.

That is all I ask of Rat

But Angel ask yourself, why is it that Rat doesn’t seem to want to be open or honest.

It is clear he has political views he shows that very obviously by his attacks so often on the left. If he only wanted ‘change’ but didn’t care “what comes after “ then why does he seem to make it quiet plain he doesn’t think “what comes after” should include the left wing?

Then ask yourself why is it that the only politics or policies he has praised are those of right wing libertarianism?

He often makes the assertion that he is neither of the left or the right, that he has a third alternative but shouldn’t people be allowed to make up their own mind in a discussion of his views?

If he has nothing to hide then just why is it that he seems so very reluctant to talk in an open and honest way about those political views and this third way?

 

Just some musings

Why is it that everyone that has come to the forum to defend Rat, never seem able to defend him?

Angel, Nalancer, Zepplin Kid, and the rest.

Yes I know the evidence that Rat is a right wing liar is pretty damning, so it is a very difficult job but the thing that gets me is why they don’t ask Rat about it?

Instead they just go silent

Angel, Nalancer, Zepplin Kid, and the rest.

**

So seeing as I have the thread once more to myself lets me continue to muse

Isn’t it strange just how close Pressed Rat ideas and arguments are to those of the far right wing John Birch Society

“The JBS opposes what it describes as collectivism, which in its view includes wealth redistribution, economic interventionism, socialism, communism, and fascism. The JBS claims that collectivist conspiracies throughout the world have significantly shaped history, and it seeks to expose and eliminate their claimed control in government in the modern era… Finally, the JBS is anti-globalization and has an illegal immigration reduction view on immigration reform. It has been a major opponent of the United Nations, NAFTA, FTAA, and other so-called free-trade agreements with other nations, believing them to be destructive to American principles and sovereignty”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society

 

Maybe because we feel more comfortable discussing specific topics with different viewpoints than we do singling out one user (with an obvious handicap) and beating him with his own words over and over again...

Hasn't this gotten old to you yet?
Do you get that much of a high pointing out how crazy rat is (a point we all already realize)?

We don't spend hours berating rat, because it's not worth the effort...
I don't know anyone in here that takes him seriously enough that he needs to be "exposed"...

You have a bit of an obsession guy.

 

Yeah, i'm half with you on that one.

But in Balbus' defence, don't stupid people annoy you?

If this thread kept popping up in your recent threads list wouldn't you respond if you felt passionate about it.

And, as much as i hate victimising, rat was such a perfect epitomy of the typical American mentality that's about as useless and harmful as the institution he claims to be against.

 

Thank you Lying for your understanding and insight, yes stupid people can be annoying, and yes (as I’ll try and explain) Rat does show certain traits I’m interested in.

Shane, as Lying has picked up on, I’ve actually given my reasons for highlighting Rats behaviour and stance several times, but I don’t mind giving it again.

**

The fact is that Rat is a product and exemplar of what I see as many of the major problems affecting the US political scene. For example-

The preference of myth over anything closer to reality.

The hatred of left wing political ideas, which is not based on anything rational (they can’t actually refute left wing arguments).

Holding political views as virtual religious tenets. ‘Knowing’ their views are right because of some inner spiritual or moral belief (so even if they are unable to defend their political ideas they still believe in them).

Taking as fair and balanced ‘truths’ things that are so obviously deeply flawed, from sources that are themselves deeply biased.

Having so little self-awareness that they seem incapable of questioning their own beliefs.

The belief that free speech is a right without responsibilities, that it is a right that allows them to say anything they want without being challenged on it or being asked to justify it.

I could go on but I think you get the picture.

If you believe Rat is insane because of such traits then it would seem that you would have to accept that a vast number of Americans are also insane.

**

Think about it, Rat attacks the Christian right for basing their ideas on religion but admits his own views are based on something that is obviously a religious belief.

He attacks things like Fox News for being politically biased, and attacks those that accept what it says with no or little questioning and then he gets his information from often extremely biased sources and seems not to question that information little if at all.

He has the same mentality and the same traits as the very people he attacks but he can’t see it because he’s not self aware.

He doesn’t find it even remotely disturbing that he can’t defend his political views, because to him they don’t need defending, he ‘knows’ they are the ‘truth’.

You and I might think such a stance ‘crazy’ but the fact is Rat and many other Americans don’t.

So maybe if I could find out more about Rat I could learn something about them.

In the mean time while trying to get Rat back into a discussion I think it reasonable to remind people from time to time of Rat’s personality and political traits. I mean he’s not capable of it is he.

**

Shane you say Rat is crazy and that no one takes him seriously but remember people keep defending him, see how this parallels American politics. The right wingers of the Bush administration definitely misled people and they very probably knowingly lied about the reasons for wanting to attack Iraq, but people still defend them (or will vote Republican again). It is the same with Rat, some people accept he is most likely misleading them and has lied but they still defend him. Why?

 

LOL. You just called the kettle black, Mr. Pot. I also didn't realize I had a typical behavior. Just because you and I butt heads, usually, doesn't mean I have a typical behavior. It just means that you and I will probably never see eye to eye on certain things.

As for demonizing. I honestly don't care enough about you to take the time to demonize you. Your dellusion of grandeur is laughable. I just made a statement of fact based on your vitriolic spooge you pump out on a regular basis.

*snorffles lemonade onto computer screen in fit of laughter*

More dellusions of grandeur...aka "OMG!!!111!I LYKE SEW SMArT AN I NO MOR3 THEN U DEW ABOUT 911 AN U R JUST JELLIES OF M3 AN IGNORANT POR BABIEZ!11!!

That's right. Only you and your magnificent, untainted, open mind can comprehend THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH.....Rawrrrr!!!!

Ok, again, only you can handle the truth. Gotcha.

And apparently, you know the ABSOLUTE TRUTH and must save the world!

So you claim to be either Superman or Jesus. Nice. Do sandles go with blue tights?