The Rat "I am willing to debate you" thread.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Balbus, Aug 22, 2005.

  1. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Yes Pressed Rat has committed himself to enter into sensible and reasonable debate in this very thread
    He claimed in the thread -

    The Illusion of Democracy

    http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112678&page=1&pp=10

    That he is "willing to set you straight if that's what you want" he went on "So, please, I implore you to go ahead and start a brand new thread asking me everything you want to ask me"

    So this is it that brand new thread, sharp intake of breath, drum roll…

    **

    In the thread "Pushing conspiracy theory? Why?"

    http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103731&page=1&pp=10

    Rat ducked out of answering some questions I had set early on page 1 saying falsely that he had answered my questions before but to help him here is my post 27 (page 3) on that thread that set things out nicely and with which we hope for a Rat reasonable and sensible reply -

    "So back to the question that for some reason Rat and the other conspirators don’t seem able to answer.

    What are we to do?

    I mean Rat says that any political party can be taken over by the banker/Jewish conspiracy so according to him you cannot vote in change.

    So what are we to do?

    He also things that any organisation can be controlled by the same conspiracy so it would seem difficult to put together a revolution.

    So just what are we to do?

    What things can be done to counter all these powerful conspiracies?

    **

    It is an important question, because if as Rat seems to indicate there is nothing people can do what is the point in telling us?

    Some in the conspiracy camp seem to think that there will be at some point a ‘critical mass’ when in some future time enough people (or all of them) will realise that the world is run by ‘lizards’, ‘Jewish bankers’, ‘illuminati’ or the duracel bunny, and will do ‘something’.

    All I’m asking is what is the ‘something’?

    **

    It is very clear that Rat is anti-left-wing and from what we can tell he is right wing and libertarian. He has claimed in the past that ‘libertarian’ policies are the only thing that the Jewish bankers fear. But also admits that if a libertarian group looked like they would gain power they to would be taken over by the very same conspiracy and made to do their ‘evil’ bidding.

    So again I was confused as to what we are meant to do to stop the conspiracies if people really believe that these things are going on they must have some kind of idea as to stopping it? Don’t they?

    **

    Rat has stated in the past that he is a libertarian and that libertarian type policies are they way to bring down the wealthy elites I disagree and in the thread Tribute to Immigration's Terry Anderson

    http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87769&page=2&pp=10

    I state some of my reason for thinking why.

    Rat said the article from which I quote here "pretty much made the point I wanted to make, and did a much better job of it than I could have, which is why I posted it."

    Here are my criticisms of that article but they are general criticisms of libertarianism so they are useful as criticisms of Rats ideas -

    Yeah, they used to work for $11.00 an hour and it would be $15.00 an hour now, but illegals work those same jobs for $5.00 an hour. It’s not a livable wage. That’s what Bush is doing to America’s poor with his mindless chant about them not wanting to do those jobs."

    Note that American meat packing workers in 1980 earned $17.10 an hour with benefits. With illegal aliens, it’s $7.00 an hour with no benefits.


    Libertarians believe that there should be no regulations on employees that they should be able to pay as they wish, in accordance with the market.

    As has been pointed out, in theory, in this globalised world that puts the American workers wages on a par with the lowest paid person on the planet. A employer can say that since they need to compete with the lowest paid workers they need to set their wages that low. In practise, for the US that would mean bring the wages down to a level closer to that of Mexican workers. Other regulations would also be removed so as not to damage the market so all employment laws and those covering health and safety would be very much relaxed or removed.

    To force people to accept such low wages and take almost any job libertarians believe in making unemployment even more untenable. Some libertarians seem to quite literally believe in the idea of ‘work or starve’.

    Wooldridge talks of ‘benefits’ I’m not sure what they would mean to a libertarian? Since under a libertarian regime such benefits would have in most cases disappeared.

    In the US recently Supermarket chains were saying they needed to cut benefits to their employees to compete with other chains that didn’t give such benefits (I believe they were talking about Wal-Mart).

    Under libertarianism their would be no statutory requirement to provide benefits, so company could quickly increase profits by taking away the benefits from their employees. This is especially true in low paid work such as discussed in the article.

    **

    "Illegal alien Mexican kids overwhelm schools. American kids in Schuyler don’t receive a decent education because the illegal kids can’t speak, write or read in English. Therefore, the classroom is dumbed down to the lowest common denominator"

    To many libertarians the education of children should be totally in the hands of the parents, they would remove all state provision of education. It would be the ability of the parent to pay for education that would dictate what level of education their children would receive. Most people would calculate that for low paid worker that would mean very little. This would create a cycle of poverty with badly educated people producing badly educated kids and with only those having the time or money to educated their children to a high standard being able to get better jobs.

    **

    "Aside from the lowering of the wages and the quality of lifestyle, a huge burden is also placed on the taxpayers, who have to help flip the bill so people who entered the country illegally can receive medical treatment. Meanwhile, millions of Americans are without healthcare."

    Health care under a libertarian system works in the same way as education, there would be no state provision. It would be the ability of the person to pay that would dictate the level of healthcare a person would receive. As I’ve pointed out earlier under a libertarians system it is very likely that work place benefits would be withdrawn so everyone would have to either pay for their own health insurance, doctors or go without. And since libertarianism would very likely see a drop in the wages of the working poor that would be difficult if not impossible so most of them.



     
  2. jim_w

    jim_w Member

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    I hope you don't mind if I add my questions to Rat to your thread?

    1) Why haven't the lizards killed you?
    1b) How do we know that you're not just a tool of the Elites?

    2) Why should we believe *your* conspiracy theories, rather than other, equally stupid ones that you say are BS? Do you have proof? Or just cut and pasted hearsay?

    3) Why does it have to be an explicit "Conspiracy", rather than just a situation where a few thousand rich and powerful people with broadly common interests and exposures tend to act in sympathy with each other? I.e. in a capitalist (even, say, a libertarian) system, you'll always get an 'elite' of very rich people who control a lot of papers, banks and so forth. They are likely often to be members of the same clubs, go to similar places and such. You can easily make this *look* like a conspiracy, but I could do the same with almost anything. Think about it; the world of professional football - they all know one another, same social circuit &c.. It would be easy to find the same kinds of BS connexions you make here. You could easily make a conspiracy theory about how football is all rigged due to this 'obvious' conspiracy. The only way to differentiate your bullshit from this would be to supply proof, which by definition you can't.

    4) If they're so powerful, how do you know that everything you think you know is just disinformation disseminated by the illuminati?

    5) You get all this shit from websites, books, shit like that, right? You don't research it yourself? You just take it from them? On trust? Please explain your research methods - how you choose who and what to read, how you determine whether it's reliable, and how you verify the information you find.

    6) You know this is BS. That is clear to me, and I'm sure to others. If you really, honestly believe this crap, then email me (jim.whitson@gmail.com) and we can discuss these matters in private with no gawkers to get in the way. If you're afraid that I'm just trying to lure you into indiscresion, bear in mind that anyone can post anything *claiming* it's a private email; proof is impossible.
     
  3. ChanginTimes

    ChanginTimes Member

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    Jim, you are such a waste of human flesh, it makes me nauseas. It's so obvious that you are trolling these boards it's painful to see how seriously you're trying to take yourself when you type. When I read your words I feel like I'm watching a young child get bullied by other kids. Painfully sad.

    Keep talking about lizards you repugnant little worm of a man.
     
  4. AannaSolo

    AannaSolo Member

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    The orion and draconia solar systems, have, up until now, harvested planets for human meat. The Galactic Confederation, of Lyra, the Plieades, Vega, Sirius, Achturas et.al. have said enough, no more.

    The Galactic Confederation at so much more powerful than orion and draconia. By mandate they no longer take a non-interventionist view (lucky for us). This battle has already been won, due to the forces of compassion and light.

    Because we are humanoid and the Galactic Confederation are humanoid we belong with the Galactic Confederation and the Raelians have been asked to build a space embassy on earth so that we can meet them.

    The facist new world order are the techniques of draconia and orion to turn people into drones. Partake of it not and you will see the Son of God returneth.

    If you need more proof, you can check my threads and links...
     
  5. cynical_otter

    cynical_otter Bleh!

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    Why don't you stop following him around and trolling his posts? You don't have to read what he says,ya know. And you don't have to respond. There is an ignore function inwhich you can ignore all posts written by Jim_W.

    If Jim_W is a troll...then you are a troll-stalker.

    But that's just my observation after reading some of these threads the past few days.
     
  6. cynical_otter

    cynical_otter Bleh!

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    :D You guys have watched V one too many times!

    Hilarious.
     
  7. Pressed_Rat

    Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

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    I am going to make this as short and sweet as possible.

    What can we do?

    Simply put, we can educate ourselves to how the system truly works. The only thing keeping the Elite in control is the illusion in which they have created, that we as a society have bought into for all these years. I am all for people taking to the streets as individuals, protesting. But, I also think protesting does very little if people don't even know what they're protesting against in the first place. Most people believe that Bush wields all the power in the world, when he's only a puppet taking orders from much higher-ups.

    I encourage people to learn how the system really works. I urge them to look into shadowy, subversive groups like the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), the Trilateral Commission and the Bilderberg Group. I urge people to understand how these groups wield enormous power over the United States government (as well as governments abroad), and how many people are plucked directly from these elite groups and put into high seats of office, working directly for the Elite and their New World Order agenda.

    I urge them to educate themelves on the money system, and how the Elite create money out of nothing while charging intrest on it, keeping nations and their people chained to debt, which serves as an excellent method of control. The people who control this system of deceit literally hold the world in the palm of their hands, as they possess the ability to control governments, the media, education, as well as people in gerneral (through the aforementioned control systems, without them knowing it).

    I urge people to read up on the Federal Reserve System, and the fact that it isn't federal (it's 100% private) and it's not a reserve. (American currency has absolutely no real backing, making it essentially fiat money.)

    I urge people to undertand that the two-party system is an absolute lie. Both parties are controlled and manipulated by the same forces, and neither party offers any real solutions to the problems facing this world. The reasons why are obvious. The Elite are woking against the interests of humanity, not for them. People who see solutions within government are only part of the problem, as they are falling for the big lie that has all of humanity in its vice.

    I urge people to understand that the mainstream media is controlled by the same powers that control the US Military and the multinational corporations, and do more to push propaganda than inform society of what's really going on in the world.

    Before I go any further, I need to clear up the fallacy that I am a "libertarian". I am not a libertarian, and I choose not to limit myself with labels.

    Since I am not a libertarian, I cannot fully answer your second question, which is based on the fallacy that I am a staunch libertarian when I am not. I am strictly INDEPENDENT when it comes to political issues. I judge things based on knowledge and what I believe to be the truth, not what best conforms to the ideals of some rigid, narrow-minded political ideology.

    Furthermore, I didn't even write the article. Wooldridge did. And who's to say I agree with everything he said? My reason for posting it was to highlight the problems that are being caused by illegal immigration, not because I agree 100% with everything Wooldridge said.

    Wooldridge's article was not even written from a libertarian viewpoint, but from a populist one. It's clear to see this by reading the article. It's all about what works for the people. When you get caught up in idiotic labels, you loose touch of the real issues. It's not about Left or Right, or Democrat or Republican. It's about what would work best for the people of this country -- politics aside.

    Lastly, I have long been accused by several people in the forum of being an anti-Semite. Nothing could be further from the truth. I also don't believe the New World Order conspiracy is strictly a "Jewish" conspiracy. To believe that it is is a diversion from the bigger picture. While Zionism certainly plays a large role in the overall conspiracy, the Elite is made up of people of every ethnicity and "religion". It's not limited to one particular group of people.

    I also need to reiterate the fact that Zionism has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Jewish people, and is merely a political movement, as the Republican Party in America is. Attacking Zionism is not the same as attacking Jews and their ethnicity and religion. I have nothing but respect for the Jewish people, as I respect all of humanity. People are to be judged on their character, not their ethnicity or beliefs. I depise racists and bigots as much as the Elite themselves.
     
  8. PurpleGel

    PurpleGel Senior Member

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    balbus, put it to rest already!
     
  9. AannaSolo

    AannaSolo Member

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    Having these shows just helps us open up to the idea it could be happening..
     
  10. jim_w

    jim_w Member

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    Well done rat; you didn't answer any questions at all! So much for being willing to debate.
     
  11. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Concerning Rat

    Well I can only say that I’m rather disappointed, after giving us reassurances that he would debate in a frank and honest way, he has once again decided not to.

    His post was mainly just a reiteration of his theories and views NOT sensible and reasonable replies to the questions and criticisms levelled at those theories and that viewpoint.

    If we actually strip his post of those sections where he urges people to look at something else, etc, we get -


    "What can we do?

    Simply put, we can educate ourselves to how the system truly works. I am all for people taking to the streets as individuals, protesting. But, I also think protesting does very little if people don't even know what they're protesting against in the first place.
    Before I go any further, I need to clear up the fallacy that I am a "libertarian". I am not a libertarian.


    Since I am not a libertarian, I cannot fully answer your second question.


    Lastly, I have long been accused by several people in the forum of being an anti-Semite. Nothing could be further from the truth."


    **

    I now Rat wants people to see things his way, I think the people on the forum understand that, the thing is it isn’t the ‘truth’ as he has often claimed it is only his viewpoint, which is disputed. But the question I have raised time and again is what do people do with the knowledge?

    Let me try and make the question clearer.

    If, as Rat argues, any political party is either under the control of the conspiracy or can be taken over by it, trying to vote for change must not be a possibility.

    So even if people accept Rats viewpoint what are they to do?

    Rat also thinks that any organisation can be controlled by the same conspiracy so it would seem difficult to put together a revolution.

    So even if people accept Rats viewpoint what are they to do?

    The question that remains unanswered is - What things can be done to counter all these powerful conspiracies other than just believing they exist and talking endlessly about them?

    **

    Rat has said on a number of occasions that he is a libertarian and I can quote these statements plus the posts and threads in which they were made.

    Here is one
    (Pressed Rat, March 18th "I am a libertarian, but that doesn't mean that I -- or any other libertarian-minded person for that matter -- believe that people who are in need should go without."
    http://www.hipforums.com/forums/sho...59&page=2&pp=10

    Post 17)

    But let us not just jump to the conclusion that Rat is lying (even if he is a known lair), and give him the shadow of a doubt, he might now have decided not to be in favour of libertarian or libertarian like policies. This begs the question of what his political views are at this particular moment? He claims to be independent but that can be dismissed given the many posts he has posted attacking the left (and liberals), which make it clear he is not independent in any sense most people would understand.

    It therefore seems only right to give him the chance to explain what political policies he would like to see in place in the US and which he thinks would undermine the elite’s power?

    **

    As to the claim of anti-Semitism, I have not made that accusation directly, but I have noted that some of Rats ‘evidence’ and the spirit of much more of it is of that ilk, as has been noted my many others on the forum. I do know that given the stigma associated with the publicly holding of such views that Rat would of course wish to disassociate himself from them in public even if he was to have them in private, which he might or might not have.



     
  12. <joke>just out of curiosit, if I got a powerful organization going in a dictatorial way would I get to meet a giant lizard?


    I'd rather like to


    or would I just meet an evil jewish banker who I must assume would swing from a helicoptor into my window<joke>

    seriously though rat, a lot of the stuff you are saying sounds a lot like stuff hitler was saying, and since we all know he was a stooge of jewish bankers I kinda wanna know why they let him go out and kill all their friends and family

    I mean that seems like a piss poor idea for any ethnicity, starting an ethnic cleansing and all

    I mean it just don't make proper grounded sense


    and as balbus says, if all the candidates, all the party leadership are controlled by this giant organization, Who can we vote for?

    if all we can do is protest, well protests only work if the governing body cares, and if there is this giant unseen organization then they very probably wouldn't care about a few protestors

    I mean I do believe that a very few people control power in this world, I do believe they are not the people evident at first glance,

    but a giant conspiracy?

    it just doesn't tick, there would just have to be to many people compliant

    are we to believe that the only reason people rise to power is because the boogie men bankers put them there?
     
  13. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    For many Americans free speech is the bedrock of freedom.

    The problem is that some people seem to believe that what free speech means is that they should be allowed to express views without those views being challenged.

    But to me the truly magical thing about free speech is not the ability to preach but to discuss and debate.

    Free speech allows views and ideas to be expressed yes, but even more importantly to be challenged.

    Debate is the means by which intellectual wheat is sorted from the chaff, it reveals what ideas of merit and uncloaks those that are lacking. It is a tool, which can help those with an idea to construct firmer foundations thereby making weak ideas become stronger as well as felling the ideas built on sand.

    But there are always those that do not want to debate their ideas they prefer to preach and call those that ask critical questions moronic or idiots, but still do not debate. To me the only difference between them and tyrants is power because if they act like that now imagine how they would act if they had the power to actually force people to stop criticising them?
     
  14. *thread hijack*

    #1 problem with free speach


    it may not infringe on life (got that, totally fair) liberty (again fair, I'd hate to have someone lie and put my happy ass in jail, although I really think bad lawyers\solicetors should get their asses handed to them by this one)

    and the pursuit of happiness


    that could mean ABSOLUTLY ANYTHING!!!!!!!


    that could mean I told someone that ford cared less about the lives of their customers than money because the l;awsuits were cheaper then building decent cars, and under proper conditions I could get nailed because I seperated them from a few sheckles (and we all know money = happiness :) )

    *hijack ended*
     
  15. ChanginTimes

    ChanginTimes Member

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    Fine, then I'm a troll-stalker! I don't take kindly to trolls and I think they SHOULD be stalked and called out.

    Jeez, talk about siding with the bad guys! You're the type who'd blame and punish the rape victim and let the rapist go free! "Well...she shouldn't have been showing so much cleavage!"

    You'll be a well-functioning citizen under the New World Order!

    "Get in line, bitch." Otter: "Certainly Sir!"
     
  16. ChanginTimes

    ChanginTimes Member

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    Um...please say you're kidding...
     
  17. matthew

    matthew Almost sexy

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    Are 'bad guys' those that don't share certain opinions that are some what dominant around here ??
     
  18. some days.....



    hey anyone got any joe mccarthy quotes we could use here?

    I mean there's gotta be one

    a nixon'd be just as good.....



    <joke> but seriously, some of our conservative posters do attract a lot of scorn, I wonder if it is because the hippie, despite looking cute and cuddly, is really a machine designed to seek out and DESTROY CONSERVATIVES, MUAHAHAHAHAHA<joke>

    and I started adding the joke tabs not because of any of the regulars, well maybe some, but apparently some people just don't get when I'm joking, also gives those of you that don't appreciate my sense of humour an oppurtunity to skip them.....
     
  19. PurpleGel

    PurpleGel Senior Member

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    what is your point balbus? what do you want to prove?
     
  20. Pressed_Rat

    Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

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    And who said this? Did I say this?

    It's funny, because if there is anyone who doesn't like to be challenged, it's so painfully obviously you, Balbus. You are the one who reacts with anger anytime I challenge the beliefs you hold, and you have made a conscious effort to silence me by playing cheap and attempting to discredit me, resorting to petty attacks involving diversionary talk about reptilians and space aliens. You never respond to my criticisms other than by attacking me, resorting to often rhetorical questions aimed at distracting attention from your lack of ability in debating the issues.

    You never elaborate on your views, but you constantly attack me for refusing to debate with you. Kind of hypocritical if you ask me.

    But I think you are the one that is incapable of debate, Balbus. Anytime you ask me to answer your quetions, and I do, you find a way to twist whatever I say or weasel around what I am saying. Or you will repeat the same chorus lines about what ideals "libertarians" supposedly embrace, as if I cling to labels the same way you do and mold my beliefs around such labels.

    Is somebody holding a gun to your head saying that you can't challenge people?

    Do you even know what Free Speech is? Free speech is the ability to say whatever the fuck it is you want, without being persecuted for it. People being persecuted for speaking their minds is a trademark of Nazi Germany and the Communist regimes of Stalin and Mao.

    Can you locate one relatively recent thread were you have elaborated on your political beliefs? I am constantly talking about what I believe, expressing my views, yet I never hear you talk about what you believe. All I ever see you do is cling to certain people's threads and nag them over their posts, simply because you disagree with them. You like to imply that people are wrong, but you never tell them WHY they're wrong -- you spend all your energy simply on making these people look bad. I've never seen you even attempt to debate, only demean. I will admit that I too have been guilty of this.

    What critical questions have you asked? All you ever ask is "What can we do?" When I respond to your question, I am told it's not good enough. What do you want? People other than myself are asking you this same question!
     

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