The Psychedelic Revolution

lol, don't worry. but seriously. when you offer someone guidance and they take it then it makes you both accountable. so you'd better watch what you say!

 

What, no weather update?

 

lol. warm, with scattered clouds.

 

American socity today is just fucking castrated. I hate admiting that, but we've degenerated into a bunch of whiney little bitches with no back bone and absurd entitlement issues.

 

exactly. anyone who doesn't see the problem isn't paying enough attention, or is just plain conceded.

 

that was beautiful!

 

accountable to who?
God, the Universe, Karma, your mother:toetap05:
That idea is another one that makes the assumption that there is some kind of ultimate and final "accounting" of our actions and choices beyond those encountered in life.

If you take some advice I give you, and it goes badly for you in some fashion, are some neo-fascists clad in black leather going to come pounding on my door wanting to exact some type of "payment" on your behalf?

 

lol!!!!

well yes, it does presuppose that our actions will be accounted for by a higher power. but also by the influence that our actions have on the world. because everything we do has a ripple effect throughout the whole, and if we are wrong and we pass it on to someone else they are also wrong. eventually the wrong becomes so great that it starts to cause society to deteriorate. so even if you weren't going to be held accountable personally wouldn't you want better that the society in the future wouldn't fall apart? this is something we have to take a stand against now.

 

And that concept of "The Butterfly Effect" may work in the areas of physical science, but it also presupposes a type of pre-determination guiding human existance, and that free will and personal choice are but an illusion.

It's not as cut and dried as you make it out to be.

 

Let's look at time then. I suggest that the appearance of linear time and the cause and effect linear chain that we observe is a product of the distance between synapses. What we see is an echo. On any given day we see only the past and dream of the future. The echo is from our own creations. However, we may come to know our creations in real time rather than purely in retrospect. To do this we go beyond appearances or perception, we transcend.
Nothing occurs in the past, nothing occurs in the future. If it is not happening now, it is not happening. Everything occurs at once, in the blink of an eye. There is no distance between the I am statement and the I am effect. We say, I am cold because we classify the current as cold. We do not wait a million years to become cold. We are in a constant state of whole becoming. The past as well as the future are both artifacts of the present. As each of us conceives moment to moment time and space come into being. The older we become, the more distance the past covers, the older we become, the farther the future advances. Until you are awakened to this moment your life is a mechanical event and there is no conscious effect. You may regard yourself as effecting a plan, but what you are doing is making moment to moment adjustments to present contingency. You must learn to be able to command the wind and the waves, before you can do one dammed thing. Being is the only doing.

 

i thought i said and if they take your guidance. even if it is just through your children you still have an effect on the world at large. through them, then their friends, then throughout all of their lives, and then their children.

but even apart from whether someone takes your guidance or not the ways we treat other people still has an effect. because the way that we treat someone shapes them, and they react to it, even in ignoring us and passivity they react to us.

 

To the culturally emasculated the complex becomes very sexy, hence hero worship.

 

Well, to sum up my position on all of this is that I just don't fucking know, and neither does anybody else.
Some shit just IS without any rhyme or reason behind it's existence.

I started to type up another lengthy response to try and clarify my thoughts, but then why, I have already done that more than once in this thread alone and it really is amounting to me just :beatdeadhorse5:, and quite frankly the fly's are starting to swarm and this thing is getting a funky smell.

Desos I direct this last statement to you;

Keep questioning and searching, that is how growth is achieved.
The only advice I really ever had to offer is don't allow yourself to get so caught up in all these questions and searching for answers that you neglect to just live life. It's a subtle trap, I have fallen victim to it myself in the past.
When your search begins to cause you to feel as if you are "outside" of life looking in, then the search has failed you.

That is all I ever intended and it is given with love and respect towards you.

Take care on your path to not let the goal overshadow the journey.

PB out. :cheers2:

 

Desos,

First, I'd like to say that I agree fairly wholeheartedly with the second half of the post I am about to debate. Very well put, it says in another way what I was trying to present.

That said, I wish to debate the first half. Sorry for the TL;DR effect here.

I'd like to start off by bringing up Plato and Epicurus. From Plato, I reference Euthyphro's Dilemma. A paraphrase of it goes: "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?". If it is commanded by God because it is good, then good is something greater then God. I know this is a simplistic point, I merely bring it up to set a stage.

I'm going to assume your answer is that this is a false dilemma. God and good are one and the same, they are basically synonymous. Good is not greater then God, good and God are one. Do correct me if I am wrong in this assumption.

Things get more interesting with Epicurus:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

To put it another way, if God is omniscient, then God knows in advance what will come of the creation. The creation was made as it was, and there could be only one outcome. If God had a plan, and all this has a purpose, why create all the suffering? Why include pain? For some greater good? Why is this needed, unless god is limited?

You say:

But what is the need for experience? Could God not have created us complete? Truly in God's image: perfect, good, immortal, omnipotent?

To me it seems, if there is a sentient creator, it is no more omnipotent nor all good then most mothers are by comparison to their unborn or newborn child. Far more powerful then us, with complete power over life and death, appearing to be omnipotent from our perspective, yet still limited. Deeply loving, truly caring, but still limited in morality. 'Mother is the name for God on the lips of all children'.

But why the need for a creator? It isn't a logical certainty. Surely it would seem to make sense on some level, it mirrors our world. The miracle of birth. Nearly all life comes from seed and germ, and we all had mothers. Creators. And yet, does this mean for certain the universe had a creator?

And if so, what sort? An all-loving, perfect, wise creator? A mother, birthing a universe conceived in passion? A watchmaker, making a splendid toy, with little to no thought for the gears in it? An epiphenomenal super-particle explosively expanding into ordered chaos, aligning the stars and planets and even our DNA by mere chance? A no-mind/nothing that somehow forgot it was nothing and imagined it was something and thereby imagined other?

All and more are interesting theories. What is to lead one to believe one over another? One might catch your imagination and inflame your Passions, but each has done so, in turns, to others. What claim do you have to Truth, when others claim the same in words that claim your truth as false?

And more, if the state of the universe logically demands a creator, does not the state of universe and creator demand the creator have a creator? And so on?

Perhaps you prefer an idea that the creation is the creator. Unity divided for the chance at love?

Why? What makes you say -this- is the purpose? Why forget in order to remember? Why walk out the door in order to walk into it? If this is true, and I insist on the if for this is only one possibility, then there must be a reason why we left unity, not merely that we left in order to enter. Either this was an accident or random fluke of chance, we feel out of bed or got swept into the mountains by evaporation and are trying very hard to make our way to to our nice cozy unity again thank-you-very-much; or we made a mistake, didn't know what we were getting ourselves in for, and will return to unity and say 'whew, that was a mistake, let's never do that again'; or we consciously looked at this experience and knowingly decided to enter into it, knowing at least something of the price, of the pain, and deeming it for some reason worth it. I tend to lean somewhat toward the latter, though all are possible.

And if the latter is true, there is something -here-, right here, in the experience, worth all the pain. Worth all the suffering that the world has ever known. And that means that unity was not perfect. It can't have been, because we were willing to go through all this for something that unity couldn't hold. I like to think it's love. I don't claim this as The Truth, I just happen to like it. Which would mean the -purpose- of all this is to love and experience being loved. And the liberation of which you speak is a liberation from -love-. I feel that if there is something here to learn, it is how better to love all of creation. For all of creation, in this idea, would desire love.

But perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps the point, the purpose, the prize of all this is something yet to come? A better universe, a perfect flawless one, that has peace and comfort but also has enough separation that love remains possible. When All, divided and one, gaze eternally in awed adoration at All.

Perhaps. It's a pretty thought. If it's true, there's no need to fear, but great reason to strive. No fear, for we entered this knowingly and therefor success is likely. It may take a long time, but we'll get there. But striving, ah striving. Striving and learning and growing, pushing ever onward toward this grand goal is worthy. Noble. Necessary. The plant must push toward the sky, and must flower, if it is to bear fruit.

It's a less pretty image I know. No ultimate goal, no perfection awaiting. Simply cycles and cycles of waking and sleeping. And cycles within cycles. Perhaps even in the perfect image I spoke of, such glory would eventually lead to some new awakening, some greater birth, some new cycle to begin. But does there need to be a purpose to the purpose? Is life, in the balance, so cruel that it is not it's own reward? Must we always in summer fear the coming of winter and in winter count the days until summer? Can we not simply enjoy what is? Enjoy the beauty of a flower, knowing it will fade; savor the taste of fruit, knowing that it will pass; lose ourselves in love, knowing that it will die?

In many ways, we live now in the embodiment of the dreams of our ancestors. Quite literally in fact. These are the summerlands! Perhaps we can dream a grander dream of things to come but we spit on the dreams of those who have come before if we do not take moments out to revel in the wonders they have given us. This is their creation! This is their dreams, their hopes, their aspirations! This is the world they struggled to achieve, they fought and strived for. How petty, how ungrateful it would be to not give thanks for it. To not take the time to revel in the abundance at our fingertips. Yes, we should not be greedy, or wasteful. We should plan in turn for those to come that they might have even more, but we should also celebrate the wonder that we have today. And give thanks, not to God, but to those who created this world for us. Our mothers and fathers, and theirs before them.

I search in my heart and find only more questions...

Again, why would we need this, if our original state was perfect? Why create evil to begin with, why present the choice? Why temptation, fueled by want, fear and frustration?

How do you know that your purpose isn't another false one? Why is this state so sad to you? If this growth is here to help us learn, if this suffering is here to help us overcome, and this state causes you suffering, shouldn't you be celebrating it? Why cringe, if learning to overcome suffering is the purpose, then such suffering presents great opportunity for you. What makes you say we were created for the growth of the creation? Why create a creation in such a state that it must go through such trials to grow into it's 'complete' state?

Unless creation is in on the joke. Or perhaps creation itself is not a conscious entity, there is only a mad laughing fool of a creator, giggling at it's own cleverness, and us. Or perhaps one of the myriad of other theories are the Truth, neither joke nor grand plan. The possibilities are limitless if you stretch your mind past what you -want- to be True.

 

:hurray: What she (or he) said

 

Desos et. all.
I would like to introduce you to a phonetic tripwire fashioned especially for you. I will be using a Indo European bija or root sound to demonstrate an effect of your own conceptions.
Would you take a deep breath and on exhalation say the words I am repeatedly with out pause until you run out of breath. As you do this, listen to the cadence and tone of the words you are speaking, you will notice that a whole other word is hidden in your speech. If you do the exercise you will be able to report back to us what that word is. I invite you to begin.

 

You two refer to emasculated, to 'not male', like it was the Worse Thing Evar. What's so awful about the feminine? It seems that society is finally starting to wake up and embrace, to a small extent, something -other- than masculinity. Granted, the femininity that it is starting to embrace is something of a sickly, broken one. In truth, much of it isn't feminine at all. It's simply those aspects of humanity that men have denied themselves and other men in the desperate urge to prove their manliness. To prove themselves not-woman. Not 'bitches'.

And now, all that is pouring out through the cracks. The fear, the 'entitlement' which is really just shock at the feeling of the betrayals of life. But 'maning up', growing a spine or a thicker skin isn't the only answer. Another possibility exists. Surrender. The ultimately 'feminine' act of pure courage.

Since this is a thread about the psychedelic revolution, I might make a recommendation to do something terribly foolish. If you have the courage. It may not turn out well though, hence the need for courage. Find a sitter, find someone you feel you can trust. Set aside a day or 3. And take more psychedelics then you think you can handle. LSD is a good one for it, considering that it has such an insanely high LD-50 that it is effectively completely impossible for it to kill you, regardless of the dose. But it has to be such a high dose that you -cannot- just tough it out. You cannot simply grin and bear it. It must be high enough that surrender, to both the experience and your trust in your friend, becomes the only possible option.

This is real courage. I actually don't recommend it, at least not for anyone not already on that path. Perhaps better you go skydiving. Something nice and acceptable where the worse that will happen is you will die. LSD won't kill you, in fact it's very unlikely to harm you. But if you dose that high and -do- resist, it does have a very tiny chance of driving you mad.

But, yeah, this culture is sorta falling apart at the edges. No one knows how they should act any more, no one knows the rules. We are given wild expectations and life doesn't live up to them. We feel betrayed, scared, confused. We whine, we cry, we beg and demand that others around us treat us fairly, treat us nice, give us what we were promised as children. We look for someone bigger and stronger to help us, because we feel powerless and are afraid.

From this, we can go one of two ways. The first is, we can go back. We can toughen up and realize that life is just cruel, and teach our sons and daughters this lesson so that they aren't quite so disillusioned when the hopes instilled in them are shattered. We can pick on those who show weakness, who cry, who whine, so mercilessly that they learn that this world has no pity for those in pain.

Or... We can create another way. One that takes real courage.

 

I wasn't talking to you.

 

And I like how you don't understand something because it doesn't address your beliefs personally. Especially when it's simple. Gives me faith you are well on your way to Moksha. lol

 

No, it is not a sexual reference but more like this below.

Did you try my exercise?