The Nature of Time

You could argue that a thought needs a thinker, which occupies space etc, but a thought an sich does not need all those.
We have not, nor can we, experience a thought outside the thinker, but it does not necessarily mean that a thought an sich does not exist. Is it fair to say that us humans created thought because we are conscious beings?
Thought being a byproduct of consciousness?

Thoughts are metaphysical in nature, so for the sake of argument we need to agree upon its condition.

To answer your question; in my opinion thought is not related to space. Therefore the relation between object, motion and space is not relevant in this.

 

I agree thought is naturally abstract.

Whereas thought transcends or goes beyond the perception of time and space, responding to our extemporaneous conditions, it does so within a temporal order.

 

^
This makes no sense to me.
You reference an experiment that proves real world objects affect brain development.
Then make a statement that objects only exist when our brains think of them?

Somehow you're thinking backwards. Objects predate thought, our minds are dependent on objects. Objects of course are matter, which in fact is concentrated energy, which in fact is movement/time, E=mC^2.

 

Perception is not reality. Some might refer to it as "my reality" but it is not the real reality.
Hydrogen and oxygen atoms interact with each other due to intrinsic natural physical properties. They've been combining to create water molecules for billions of years, billions of years before sentient animals and human consciousness. They have these properties regardless of what humans might perceive them to be or even if they're not perceived by anything at all. Their properties and interactions make them naturally distinct objects. People can close their minds and live in a delusional world where water is manifested from Gods. They can convince themselves of these false truths. Movement is the natural distinction of time regardless of any conscious perceptions, twisted or otherwise, partially understood or not at all. Which pill do you want to swallow? Egocentric spiritual fantasies or linear logic and reason.

Some perceptions are closer to the truth than others.

 

Hey! No fair! Meagain has a book that he is reading to create this thread! None of us have that...!

I'M JOKING!!!

I am going to think more on this one before answering---great thread Meagain!

But I wanted to point out a few things---the example that Green Green Grass of Home posted, and the one brought up about thought, are missing one aspect of movement---which to me suggests that movement is still part of the equation: As the person stood there in one spot, not moving, or as the person had the thought--a phenomena of conscious that lacks material existence, in both cases, as time took place, the individuals did in fact move. Because they are no longer at the same spot within the universe that they were when that action of waiting, or thinking began. For example, the earth underneath their feet moved. If they spent 5 minutes on an afternoon doing either process, they are now 5 minutes closer to that point where the earths movement will make the sun appear to fall below the horizon. (and I hope Green did not jump out of the conversation---he has provided a good opinion, which got me to thinking this through).

We could put them in a space ship in outer space, and state that this space ship is sitting solitary in space. However there is still movement in a realtive way---the universe around them has moved, the earth has moved either closer or farther in relation to where their space ship is. Meanwhile the earth has spun on its orbit. The sun itself has moved on its own orbit around the Milky Way galaxy, and has carried the planets, moons, asteroids, and all other objects of the solar system with it. The Milky Way itself has moved, both in the direction of its own path, and in the direction of its spin. Relative to all these bodies the solitary space ship is no longer in the same position. Movement is therefore a fundamental aspect of our physical time.

Secondly there is no empty space---it is filled with the Zero-Point Field---a field of electromagnetic radiation which is at the base level of energy for the universe---the point at which we start zero at.

 

And as I pointed out in the thread on thought and time--in my gedankenexperiment (thought experiment) all quanta, that is, or makes up each particle, are jittering in place at the speed of light---and this in reality may be what time is, because a particle moving accross the universe at the speed of light according to the theory of relativity exists in zero space-time. All time and space at the speed of light drops to zero.

If we go off the work of Bernard Haisch and his colleague, who reworked Newton's law of motion (f = ma) from the framework of the zero-point field, and concluded that it is the zero-point field that creates inertia (and it is inertia that creates mass), which means that it is the electromagnetic radiation, or light energy of the zero-point field, preventing these quanta from moving accross the universe at the speed of light, that creates inertia that in turn creates mass.

At a very minute level these quanta are still moving at the speed of light, but because they are held in place by inertia, they are only able to jitter back and forth. This creates mass, and therefore as we move above the Quantum levels we have the increasing perception of mass---mass that does not move at the speed of light and therefore exists in time. By creating mass, you are creating dimensions of space which exists in time, i.e. the space-time continuum. And of course the bigger the mass, the more the warp of the space-time continuum.

Therefore the 4th Dimension could be movement back and forth (jittering) in every direction at the speed of light.

 

Green most certainly did jump out. It is a great shame, and to the detriment of otherwise interesting threads, that idiots insist on misinterpreting, misreading and just plain misunderstanding simple concepts.


It inhibits sensible discussions.

But that's OK, it's the internet, where people can pretend to a level of sophistication and comprehension that they really don't possess.

I'll just go back to the Love and Sex forums and stroke my 17 inch penis.

 

To the detriment of the thread????

My, aren't we a humble one.
From what I read, you put forth an idea, it was challenged, you ran away hurling insults over your shoulder as you bid a hasty retreat.

Or are there other pages to this thread I'm not seeing?

 

That's just what I meant.

My concept wasn't challenged, it was totally misunderstood. But, as usual, instead of "Oh I'm sorry, let's talk about your idea" we got nonsensical assumptions and a raft of pseudo-intellectual non-sequiturs.


But, as I say, that's the internet. Everyone is an expert.

If you wish to debate these matters, go ahead. But it's rather like debating the colour of hate or the number of green.

 

I'm still thinking this through---it fits in with the Gestalt theory---that our brain first picks up perception as a whole, and then the gestalt stands out, i.e. the gestalt effect creates the emergence of individual shapes, or forms (gestalt) within that whole.

Adding movement to the perception of the objects again brings up the paradox of the double slit experiment and the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principal. At the quantum level you cannot measure both momentum and position--once you measure one you determine how it exists (for example, if you measure momentum, you experience a wave, if you measure position you experience, or your reality involves a particle not a wave---and it has been shown that this measurment in the present can actually change the reality as it manifests in the past). This creates the strange quantum problem that an observer is necessary to determine reality. Science has tried to come up with an alternative that would not require an observer, creating the multiple universe theory--but the problems there are even greater than having an observer.

If the occurrence of thoughts, objects, space, and time would be simultaneous, as you suggested, than the fact that the double slit experiment suggests we can effect the past, would mean that this is not the case, for the past must still exist if we are to have an effect on it in the present in my opinion.

UNLESS----consciosness like light exists in the realm of zero space-time, as I suggested in my gedankenexperiment. Since light exists in zero space-time, then if we were able to move at the speed of light---all time and space would collapse to a single infinitely small point. Conceivably we could exist at the beginning of the universe and the end of the universe and be at all edges of that universe, but it would be nothing more than a single minute instant. An example I gave is a photon travelling for millions of years from a distant galxy to the Hubble Space craft camera lens. In our reality it took millions of years and a distance of millions of light years for that photon to travel from there to the Hubble. But to the photon, the beginning point in the galaxy, , the millions of light years of space, and the end point at the Hubble Telescope was all simultaneous.

In our here and now, we experienced that photon as only a single minute instant---the here and now, now gone forever, when it ended its journey creating a part of the photograph of that galaxy. But we perceive from our reality that it travelled all that time and distance. When we were born that photon was still light years away from earth in deep space. We experience consciousness in the same way---I have a thought but it is gone in an instant and I am onto the next thought. The thought I had is only a memory which I can certainly think again, but the original thought is gone forever. More importantly we do not really know what consciousness is---if we did, then there would be no more argument over locality vs non-locality, etc.

So I suggest that it is possible that there is a level of consciousness that exists at the speed of light--an energy we do not yet understand. This level of consciousness is obviously below our perception, but in the double slit experiment we see it demonstrated when we try to measure the position of a particle. This is one way of making sense of your suggestion except that this single spontaneous instant of creation can encompass all space and time as a single instant of an infinitely small here and now.

Another flavor to add to this whole thing is the theory of a holographic universe----the implication there is that even movement--at least in some of the 3 dimensions, if not all of the 3, becomes an illusion determined by the mind. This is also true of certain aspects of the object's shape and form---as all existence becomes a thin holographic cell.

 

Good point---which goes back to the suggestions of Bernard Haisch that all reality is composed fundamentally of light energy---which I also explored in my gedankenexperiment, but did not get into in the post I just posted. If particles are composed, at their most fundamental levels, of photons jiggling at the speed of light, then mass is actually an illusion created by the inertia of not being able to move in a linear direction---held in place by the zero-point field, because photons themselves have zero mass, and infinity times zero is 1, ...no wait, 322.87721 ...no that doesn't sound right---damn I wish I paid attention in math class back in school---infinity times zero is... it'll come to me in a minute...

Bernard Heisch is an astrophysicist---he writes the Astrology Column for the London Times-----no wait, that's not right either... Seriously he is actually an Astrophysicist, and wrote the book The God Theory. His book was more about the zero point field and he and his colleagues reworking of Newton's formula----he did not go as far with the implications as I did with my gedankenexperiment.

Yes--if only someone else were to give their views on this---not to name names...

 

By the way---in recent threads in which many of us have participated, there has been an overwhelming embracing of the philosophy of Presentism (it's real---I didn't make it up, look it up yourself). This is the idea that only the present is real, and that time moves on as a continuous present in which the past and future do not exist. This is because most of the participants in these threads are clearly neo-catalystic thorensic conversionists (I didn't make that up---you can... ok, I did made that one up).

But there is another school of philosophy out there called Eternalism. Physicists that adhere to this, I believe, prefer the term Block Theory (and Block Universe theory)---either way it goes by any of these names. It holds that the 4th dimension is in fact real, and that all events in time exist within this dimension, therefore the past and future exist even though we do not currently experience them. There are numerous philosophers and physicists that feel that Presentism does not go well with the Theory of Relativity and other modern theories of physics. Likewise, the implications of the double split experiment does not fit well with Presentism either.

So while the concept of Eternalism seems a bit crazy and contrary to empirical experience--it does have numerous proponents.

 

Particles DO NOT have mass. They have a tiny mass potential. Only when applied with others in atomic energy orbits do they create mass collectively.

This is probably the best explanation of the double slit to date, it is however quite long and repetitive so skip to around 45m:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QsFBxCR8CY"]The Primer Fields Part 3 - YouTube

Basically, a particle such as a photon or electron does not really exist. By that I mean it is not a spec of matter or any kind of substance. The photon or any sub atomic "particle" is a theoretical center of a complex energy/electromagnetic field, which are wave forms. These fields are billions of times larger than their "particle" centers. When a "particle" travels through one slit, part of its extended field travels through the other. That extended magnetic field that separates from the original field creates its own "particle" or center, the new field with its new center interfere with the original field and center.

Waves do not and can not exist without time (see diagram at 4:27). Interference patters can not exist without time and time differentials. By time of course I mean the progress of movement, not the philosophical fantasy of time as a dimensional shift through an infinite number of frozen universes as observed by some egocentric spirit.

 

Thank you Relaxxx for posting that--it is interesting and I will have to go through the whole series to see what all he has to say.

However, on the Double Split experiment, I must say that I am disappointed. He claims to have solved the paradox of the Double Slit experiment but he merely explained why there is an interference pattern even when one particle passes through one of the slits. That is not the real paradox---and scientists have explained already that it normally goes through the slits as a wave. Granted, he did add to the understanding of the wave---but that is not the real puzzle.

The real puzzle involves the collapse of the wave function when the position of the particle is measured. It acts as a wave creating the interference pattern of multiple lines just like waves do when they enter into a harbor or marina with two entrances. But once we try to measure the position of the particle, it enters the slits not as a wave, but as a particle in which it enters 'only' one slit or the other, and not both. I did not see anywhere where the video explained this dilemna.

Or to put it in the terms of the video---how does the Primer Field know to stop acting like a field when the position of the particle is measured.

But that is not even the craziest part----scientists then moved the measuring device past the double slits, and the assumption is that, having already passed through the slits it is now too late to change the way the particle/wave passes through the slits, so there should not be any collapse of the wave function. But oddly enough, the wave function still collapses when position is measured, suggesting that the act of measuring the particle changed the past (i.e. how the wave/particle already passes through the slits before measuring it).

To make it even more strange, one researcher (I am still trying to get credible sources on this experiment), added a new element to the experiment. In his case, the position was recorded on a tape, but without the tape, the researcher had no way of knowing what the measurement was. SO he measured the position of the particle with the tape in the measuring device, after the slits, and the wave function collapsed. Then he took out the tape so that the position was still being measured but the researcher did not know what the result actually was----the very weird thing is that the interference pattern of the wave returned----meaning that it didn't matter if the position was measured or not, what really mattered was that someone was consciously aware of what the measurment was.

This doesn't matter whether it is one particle or many particles, or even whether it is a photon, electron, a molecule----the results are always the same.

Unfortunately---at least in this video----this person did not explain how the wave collapse takes place when it is measured. There are plenty of videos on the web that discuss the wave collapse and are therefore more significant to the true implications of the double slit experiment-----or if there is a place where this guy discusses that problem please point it out to me.

 

Maybe in a future video he will address the measurement problem. I actually emailed him and asked about it. I think part of the problem is finding a real credible experiment that provides enough information so we can even properly analyze. There's many youtube videos that don't even get this interference part right, and they all have hidden agendas trying to promote spiritualism or other bad science.

A particle simply can not be observed without breaking it/collapsing its wave function. It literally has to collide with a sensor and its linear energy is transferred into the atoms and electrons of the device. The phase or position of that particle is only known for the exact moment in space-time where it collided with the sensor. All other previous moments in time can only be approximated in a range of possibilities called superposition.

We can record energy waves over time and play them back, just like we would an audio recording of a radio program. The wave recording is a record of phase over time. If you zoomed in to its smallest unit of time and observed one bit of information at that instant, there is no wave visible. Also since time is relative, the act of observing just one instance is to remove or disregard time. The smallest part of the wave looks like a particle, but we know it was more than that. When it comes to individual sub atomic particles we can not record its actual phase over time, we only ever get one snapshot of one instance, when we destroy it.