The Nature of Reality

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by MeAgain, Feb 1, 2021.

  1. Longstone

    Longstone Members

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    The whole existence of the term “42” is completely at odds with your inane ramblings
     
  2. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    An examination of classical physics and mathematics concluded that an arbitrary number of rudimentary metaphors can describe everything equally accurately. In other words, classic mathematics are demonstrably tautological, Relativity is demonstrably self-contradictory, and quantum mechanics defy categorization. You are the one rambling, without a clue that you are spouting complete gibberish, or possibly, not really caring about what comes out of your mouth unless it gives you cheap thrills.
     
  3. Longstone

    Longstone Members

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    I’m exceptionally well versed and educated in quantum mechanics as it happens and can assure you that it is in no way related with The Hitchhikers Guide to The Galaxy or the use of ASCII as a metaphor. You repeatedly claim some form of superior knowledge yet show zero evidence of either a modicum of intelligence or the “facts” you glibly spout.
    Please do pick a single topic, elaborate on your theorem and then supply peer reviewed evidence to back it up.
     
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  4. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Any on topic remarks are always welcome.
     
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  5. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    THE SENSORY NATURE OF THE WORLD​
    As we have seen the experience of outside objects relies on our senses. Further, our senses determine what we can sense, and therefore what attributes can be known about reality and what we call outside objects. As the senses rely on the body, we again can see that outside objects and the body are one and the same.
    Other persons' bodies likewise are outside objects to our perception, subject to the same limitations of our own bodily sense apparatus.
    From our own objective experience other persons' bodies are merely another subjective experience.

    To some this may seem to be a form of solipsism, hopefully this will be addressed as we proceed.
     
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  6. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

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    What you are outlining so far is somewhat similar to what is known in western traditions as philosophical idealism--quite close to solipsism, and I think, to the Upanishads. At some point we could bring the western literature into the picture. The methodology is essentially phenomenology, which I think is valuable but can get us only so far. If we develop the illusion we have Covid 19, what to do? We could play along with the dream and go to a doctor for it. taking a chance the doctor somehow is real. (S)he will look at us as a specimen similar to countless others encountered in medical school and daily practice--a material entity with a brain and nervous system integrated with a physical body-- and treat the condition accordingly. Will it help? If our illusory symptoms seem to dissipate, we might think so. I continue to relate to you as though you exist, although as far as I know, you're really part of a strange dream. (Bishop Berkeley, eat your heart out!)
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
  7. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    I think there is a distinction.
    In classic Idealism subjective things are not real, only a construct of your mind, once you go to sleep the world disappears as there is no one to observe it, the subjective mind is absent. Objective and subjective are separate. The subjective "makes" the objective.

    Advaita vendata doesn't claim objects aren't real, only that there is no separation of the subjective and objective. Both are real and both are the same.

    I think!
     
  8. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    The evidence in sociology, neurology, and immunology all suggest instant karma, just like quantum mechanics. The poorest elderly among us don't thrive as well and die younger, the less they have to offer others. Entire ecologies have been documented in poor communities, where everyone struggles to pay it forward to each other, and extend their lives. The same effect can even be seen in studies of morality, with those raised in extended families being among the few in modern civilization who actually live up to their own moral standards, and thrive better in the long run. Immunology comes into the picture, because it turns out your immune system determines how social you become, and your reproduction as well.

    Modern science has attempted to avoid the issue whenever possible for a century, but all the evidence is condemning them. We require entirely new laws of thought and logic.
     
  9. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    COMMON SENSE AND THE TESTIMONY OF OTHERS​
    We are led to believe that independent objects exist because others agree that they do so. Likewise we believe that others exist.
    The stance being presented in this thread is in opposition to those beliefs.
    This doesn't mean we need disregard "normal" interactions with objects and other beings commonly seen as having an independent existence.
    What it proposes is that we must understand the nature of reality and our place in that reality.
    Once we see that our true self is in fact imperishable and rooted in ultimate consciousness, we then can live unaffected by the highs and lows of life.
     
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  10. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    We only know other beings while we ourselves can sense our own body. This occurs in two of the three states of being, dreaming, and waking. While dreaming we experience other beings and attribute life to them even though upon waking we realize they were only products of our mind.
    So too, when in the waking state we attribute life to other beings even though we cannot directly perceive life itself.

    Could it be that life is merely a notion, or idea, in both the dream and waking states?
     
  11. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Clinging to what we already know can be a deterrent to what we may come to know, or learn. In general we find comfort in our individual experiences of the world. They seem to be true and there seems to be no reason to question the validity of everyday experiences. After all, if we kick a rock it hurts our foot.
    Then again if we kick a rock while dreaming we may also feel pain.

    Our choices are to accept life as it is commonly known, or to seek a broader understanding of what reality really entails.

    Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the here and now?
    ― John Lennon​
     
  12. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    THE UNREAL DUALISM OF MIND AND MATTER​
    Both the waking state and the dreaming state are nothing more than a product of mind. Mind in this regard is thought, and no thing exists without being thought of. Thus thought and matter are the same. The only difference is the intensity of the thought which at times seems to engender matter, at other times it does not.

    Why some thoughts manifest as matter and others do not will not be considered at present.
    To debate evolution, first cause, or cosmology serves no purpose, at present, for an understanding of reality.
     
  13. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    TWO COMMON MISUNDERSTANDINGS​
    In this section it is pointed out that although Bertrand Russell agrees that immediate experiences of the reality of an object are mental, as the senses are intermediately involved between the object and the mental apprehension of that object, when no one is present to apprehend an object it must still exist. He makes this claim because as it takes time for light and sound to reach an individual from a supposed object, that object must exist prior to the observation otherwise no light or sound would have originated.
    Levy disputes this as he sees no difference between immediate knowledge of events and events that occur where there is no one to observe.
    This is because the inference of events occurring without immediate observation and events occurring with immediate observation both entail immediate recognition of their occurrence.
    In addition observation that occurs directly though our own senses, by acknowledgement of another's senses, or through a physical extension of our own senses; all occurs immediately.

    Russell agrees that matter is not the cause of mental activity, but the other way around.
    Dr. Johnson attempts, as many others, to refuted this notion by kicking a rock and having his foot repelled by the stone, thus claiming the rock has individual reality.
    But what Johnson doesn't know is that both the rock and his foot are mostly comprised of empty "space" and never meet. In this Levy is referring to the possible role of consciousness in the collapse of the quantum wave-function.
    In addition Johnson's argument is an example of argumentum ad lapidem’.

    The stone is mental, the foot is mental, the body is mental, and the external world is mental. All are all an integrated mental activity.
     
  14. tikoo

    tikoo Senior Member

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    Am I or not responsible for what I observe ? I am responsible for how kindly I interpret any whatever .
     
  15. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    perception may be all that we have, but,
    existence doesn't have to be physical, and it certainly doesn't have to be known, and owes absolutely nothing to our perception of it.

    that's really, we can spin webs about our perceptions for ever, and that's fine, but reality is itself without any regard to what anyone tells anyone else how to see.
    its just a completely separate thing, and all we can do is draw inferences from observable behavior of the unknown,
    and realize that as much as our egos hate to admit ignorance, what is not known is not known.

    now if you want to sum reality up in one word, that one word is diversity, which if it wasn't the nature of reality we wouldn't exist.

    the wonderful thing really, is that it isn't limited to the narrowness of what people tell each other to pretend for any good or bad reason.
    if there's one thing we deny too much, its the diversity of the possible. we don't need to imagine less, we need to imagine much more diversely then we're familiar with.

    we have a lot of names of things we make up, its not that we need to throw them out,
    its that we need, if we want to have any kind of comprehension of reality, to stop limiting our imaginations to them.
     
  16. tikoo

    tikoo Senior Member

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    Well , then what is the reality of nature ? Will the mind surrender ? This is the war of myth .
     
  17. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Thanks for the remarks!

    The next section deals with the concrete illusion of the world, objects, and how they are perceived. Please add any comments or criticisms.
     
  18. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    THE ILLUSION OF MATERIALITY​
    The notion of length and breadth results from the memory of many different observations of local sensory perceptions. The more local immediate perceptions retained by memory, the greater the length and breadth perceived.
    As these perceptions of length and breadth are retained, the notion of a continuous surface is formed and the idea of an object arises.
    If we consider the perception of a cube, the idea of its surface arises as we scan the "object" by various senses such as sight or touch. We see or perhaps run our hand across the top, then the front, back, and sides. All we have perceived thus far are independent surfaces, the front, back, top, bottom, and sides. By uniting theses surfaces in memory the notion of a cube arises.
    Note that our idea of a surface, that is length and breath, cannot be conceived of without also considering depth as no single flat surface, lacking depth, can ever be conceived to exist.
     
  19. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    equating perception with reality, because the ego refuses to admit its ignorance, yes that much is myth.
    existence, which the mind can never know directly, other then its own, is what is not myth.

    other worlds circle other suns. other minds look up at their own night sky.
    every myth has at least a one chance in infinity, but no matter how detailed nor persuasive, it is not a rock or a tree or a sun or a world.
    how much awareness has to do with anything beyond its own existence, lives in the realm of the unknown.
     
  20. tikoo

    tikoo Senior Member

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    Is the unknowable within the realm of the unknown ? And then so we have zen - the great joke of the universe . Three days after his death my grandfather appeared to my mind . His face , oh , his old farmer face , laughing ultimately .
     

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