The Legalization Debate

Discussion in 'Cannabis and Marijuana' started by element7, Jan 9, 2005.

  1. TrippinBTM

    TrippinBTM Ramblin' Man

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    A few corrections: the 700,000 is for arrests, not imprisonment. 700,000 arrests for weed, 88% for possession alone. Also, asprin kills a few hundred at most, not 6 thousand.

    Someone else said marijuana is present in many who have been in car accidents. The problem is that THC stays in your blood for up to a month. Alcohol in someone's bloodstream tells you they've been drinking in the last few hours. THC in the bloodstream tells you the person has been smoking in the last few weeks. BIG difference.

    Anyways, the major reason marijuana laws need to be reconsidered in favor of legalization has nothing to do with how it's never killed anyone, or how it doesn't cause crime or violence, or how it isn't addictive like other drugs. That's all valid and helpful information, but not the main reason. The main reason is that marijuana has been illegal for 67 years and usage has not stopped, in fact it has increased a great deal. There is nothing the government can do to stop people from smoking weed, in fact, when harsher the laws are implemented, usage tends to go UP, not down. I watched a show about border patrol cops, and they say they catch roughly 10% of illegal drugs that come across the border. He likened it to a game of cat and mouse. The problem is, the cat is losing 90% of the time. And when 88% of the people arrested for marijuana related charges is for possession ALONE, we have a problem.

    It is futile and wrong to criminalize an activity which a large number of people partake in, considering that the activity harms no one. Prohibition will never succeed. Yet every year our spending on the Drug War goes up, it's about 20 billion dollars now and half that is for weed. That alone should make the people, smokers and non smokers alike, say "hey, why are we spending exorbitant amounts of OUR tax money on a law that CAN NEVER be effective?" I say, that money could be better spent against real crime like murder and rape, and robbery (which, unless it's a big heist, cops can never really investigate because there ISN'T ENOUGH MONEY OR MANPOWER TO DO SO...because they're all out arresting pot smokers). That money could also go towards helping with addiction to heroin, crack and cocaine, and to education/prevention programs.

    Also, legalizing weed would clear out our courts, who are very bogged down (both in time and costs...costs borne by tax payers) which is making it hard to get a speedy trial, as is promised in the Bill of Rights.
     
  2. PLyTheMan

    PLyTheMan Senior Member

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    My body is mine. I should be able to decide what I want to put in it and decide how I want to harm it. I'm not going to say that smoking is harmless, it may not be as bad as ciggs, but it still aint great. Regardless, it is none of the government's buisness what I do to my body. Further more, if people can wreck their lungs on ciggs and wreck their livers, kidneys, brain cells, and other peoples lives on alcohol, its shere lunacy that pot is illegal. People can OD on alcohol but not pot, as stated, car accidents are lots higher with drunk people than stoned.

    As far as health, there are no negative health effects (that I know of at least) from eating pot. Methods that can reduce the harm of carcinogens such as bongs are constantly confiscated leaving people to roll with papers and inhale not only burning pot but burning papers as well.

    I'll finish, however, by saying that I only want de criminalization of it. I fear that if it is legal it will be taxed to hell and have so much extra crap manufactured into it so that pot becomes just like tobbacco. I guess I want to have my brownies and eat them too =P
     
  3. TrippinBTM

    TrippinBTM Ramblin' Man

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    Grow your own. Tobacco is hard to grow, but weed is...a weed, easy to grow. If marijuana is legal, I doubt there will be much against people growing their own. Not everyone will be able to, but what of that? I can grow flowers and sell them to others in my neighborhood, one could do the same with weed. It would be like it is now, only not illegal. Or one could opt for storebought weed, and that'd be fine too. And even if it was illegal to grow without a licence...get a licence. Or just grow it. Are your neighbors going to turn you in? Not likely, not if marijuana is legal.

    Other than that...yeah, I agree, my body is mine and the govt has no right to tell me what is right for me. I can go skydiving, snorkeling in shark infested water, but can't smoke a joint? This law has nothing to do with protecting us from ourselves, it's about control. Mainly controlling blacks and latinos in the beginning, now it's controlling everyone, it seems. No smoking, or it might make you question things...and if you do start questioning, well, they can brand you a dopehead, throw you in jail, and make you worth nothing. No one will listen to the theories of a dopehead, so they stay safe. It sometimes seem like this is true, like it's a tangled evil web of control, lies, and power.
     
  4. Jointman69

    Jointman69 High Nigga Pie

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    i agree with the my body is mine.
    what is the govt going to prohibit next? Consenual Sex and Ear piercings?
    some stupid shit goes on and like sheep to the slaughter our elders agree without question. I read that article someone posted the erowid mj FAQ and it was enlightening to know. sure the writer of the coke and opium examples sounded a little rascist towards whites but hidden within that was SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE FROM CREDIBLE SOURCES SAYING POT IS ILLEGAL FOR STUPID REASONS. Henry Anslinger after retirement said that the FBNDD (now the DEA) basically gave its employees the right to rape and steal.....
     
  5. element7

    element7 Random fool

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    One of the things which I believe that the powers that be are afraid of is what type of market legalization would produce. The Humboldt growers would probably make more money if they were allowed to grow and sell as a legitimate operation. As far as finding the herb at Safeway and Albertsons I'm sure it would happen and it doesn't offend me in the least. Imagine if those growers were pulling in orders to fill the shelves of the entire chain down the west coast. Truckloads going out. They could hire people legally and provide jobs and a boost to the economy. The area might very well become known legitimately the world over (as it already is on the downlow) as a prime exporter of fine Mary Jane.

    As far as the quasi-legal system goes I'm not so sure it would work to keep out the mega-corps. Surely they would at least attempt to use it just as they would if it were totally legal. With the synthesis of govt and big buisiness I wouldn't doubt that one of the reasons they keep perpetuating the myths and blocking legalization is the fact that they couldn't monopolize the trade. There are far too many growers all over the nation that are experts in the field. Sure, the big companies would give it a go but they'd have real competition and would always be considered 'outsiders'.
     
  6. Jointman69

    Jointman69 High Nigga Pie

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    ^ very true.

    Another pro for legalization is none of us would ever go through a dry spell again....god dryspells are a bitch.

    I agree witht he companies being outsiders because there are some heavy grow ops around the united states. if it were to be legalized the growers who are seasoned veterans profits would increase so much and mad people would start making money. and if you think about it it could help the poor way more then GWB ever could. all the people on wellfare would have to do is get a growing book and then sell thier crop for cheaper then the local store. So much good could come of legalization its ludicrous that it hasnt happened yet.
     
  7. TrippinBTM

    TrippinBTM Ramblin' Man

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  8. gointocalifornia

    gointocalifornia Member

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    alright here are my reasons why it should be (it should also be noted im not an avid smoker)

    1. If the govt taxed the sale of pot, we'd be out of debt in America and mannny other countries.

    2. Overcrowded jails would be MUCH less crowded

    3.There would not be as many problems buying weed that wasn't laced...therefore less complications.
     
  9. Jointman69

    Jointman69 High Nigga Pie

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    im pro-legalization but this debate has to have its facts straight. this was pulled from the DEA's website so i guess MJ is getting more potent(HELL YEAH:D )
    Average THC Content of Marijuana
    percent19851992199319941995199619971998Commercial
    3.71​
    3.97​
    4.52​
    4.25​
    4.19​
    4.77​
    5.56​
    5.57​
    Sinsemilla
    7.28​
    8.57​
    5.77​
    7.49​
    7.51​
    9.23​
    11.55​
    12.32​


     
  10. Jointman69

    Jointman69 High Nigga Pie

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    ^sorry it came out in a grid kinda thing. the %s match the years left to right from top to bottom.
     
  11. goldmund

    goldmund Member

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    The increase in THC levels throughout the last 30 years or so has been due to larger amounts of quality herb being seized, not because of a large change in the genetics of marijuana.
    For example, most weed seized in 1968 in the US, was either seized at our border with Mexico, or was Mexican in origin, not properly grown, dried, or packed.
    There have always been powerful strains available around the world, it wasn't until Americans took an interest in the horticultural prospects that these would become available widely in the States.
     
  12. goldmund

    goldmund Member

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    In response to the market effects on legalization, from growers all the way down, sure it would have a tremendous impact that many many fear. I understand your point that through regulation, you could have legitimate and guarded farms, grown under optimal conditions; however, this most likely would not happen in places like Humboldt Co.

    Humboldt Co. is what it is only because of its location relative to the war on the drugs, not because of its climate and soil conditions. Humboldt is largely rocky and mountainous/hilly, with few larger valleys to support large-scale operations.

    The other issue is still that the United States is bound by international treaties that prohibit us from legalizing it. This is the same reason the Netherlands has not completely made it legal. Its not like we haven't done other things that are prohibited by international law, but that's beside the point! The lawmakers wouldn't go for it--YET.

    But check this out, my little plan, my little scheme. If you DE-CRIMINALIZE it first, you give growers, not large companies, a chance to estabish brands, repoire, distribution, marketing, etc. The government would become used to the idea that Churches accross the land will not come crashing down, and then the dialogue could really begin for legalization. It has to move in steps, probably state-by-state and city by city.

    The cool thing for cities/states is that they have law enforcement jurisdiction for any grow op, under 100 plants. Places like Berkeley in CA have made it ILLEGAL for the cops to raid any house with 99 plants or less, w/out having their seizure pre-approved by the CITY COUNCIL!!! packed with green party members. This is not just for medical marijuana.
     
  13. northernlehigh97

    northernlehigh97 Senior Member

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    What are some of the immediate effects of smoking marijuana?
    Some immediate physical effects of marijuana include a faster heartbeat and pulse rate, bloodshot eyes, and a dry mouth and throat. No scientific evidence indicates that marijuana improves hearing, eyesight, and skin sensitivity. Studies of marijuana's mental effects show that the drug can impair or reduce short-term memory, alter sense of time, and reduce ability to do things which require concentration, swift reactions, and coordination, such as driving a car or operating machinery.

    Are there any other adverse reactions to marijuana?
    A common bad reaction to marijuana is the "acute panic anxiety reaction." People describe this reaction as an extreme fear of "losing control," which causes panic. The symptoms usually disappear in a few hours.

    What about psychological dependence on marijuana?
    Long-term regular users of marijuana may become psychologically dependent. They may have a hard time limiting their use, they may need more of the drug to get the same effect, and they may develop problems with their jobs and personal relationships. The drug can become the most important aspect of their lives.

    What are the dangers for young people?
    One major concern about marijuana is its possible effects on young people as they grow up. Research shows that the earlier people start using drugs, the more likely they are to go on to experiment with other drugs. In addition, when young people start using marijuana regularly, they often lose interest and are not motivated to do their schoolwork. The effects of marijuana can interfere with learning by impairing thinking, reading comprehension, and verbal and mathematical skills. Research shows that students do not remember what they have learned when they are "high".

    How does marijuana affect driving ability?
    Driving experiments show that marijuana affects a wide range of skills needed for safe driving -- thinking and reflexes are slowed, making it hard for drivers to respond to sudden, unexpected events. Also, a driver's ability to "track" (stay in lane) through curves, to brake quickly, and to maintain speed and the proper distance between cars is affected. Research shows that these skills are impaired for at least 4-6 hours after smoking a single marijuana cigarette, long after the "high" is gone. If a person drinks alcohol, along with using marijuana, the risk of an accident greatly increases. Marijuana presents a definite danger on the road.

    Does marijuana affect the human reproductive system?
    Some research studies suggest that the use of marijuana during pregnancy may result in premature babies and in low birth weights. Studies of men and women may have a temporary loss of fertility. These findings suggest that marijuana may be especially harmful during adolescence, a period of rapid physical and sexual development.

    How does marijuana affect the heart?
    Marijuana use increases the heart rate as much as 50 percent, depending on the amount of THC. It can cause chest pain in people who have a poor blood supply to the heart - and it produces these effects more rapidly than tobacco smoke does.

    How does marijuana affect the lungs?
    Scientists believe that marijuana can be especially harmful to the lungs because users often inhale the unfiltered smoke deeply and hold it in their lungs as long as possible. Therefore, the smoke is in contact with lung tissues for long periods of time, which irritates the lungs and damages the way they work. Marijuana smoke contains some of the same ingredients in tobacco smoke that can cause emphysema and cancer. In addition, many marijuana users also smoke cigarettes; the combined effects of smoking these two substances creates an increased health risk.

    Can marijuana cause cancer?
    Marijuana smoke has been found to contain more cancer-causing agents than is found in tobacco smoke. Examination of human lung tissue that had been exposed to marijuana smoke over a long period of time in a laboratory showed cellular changes called metaplasia that are considered precancerous. In laboratory test, the tars from marijuana smoke have produced tumors when applied to animal skin. These studies suggest that it is likely that marijuana may cause cancer if used for a number of years.

    How are people usually introduced to marijuana?
    Many young people are introduced to marijuana by their peers - usually acquaintances, friends, sisters, and brothers. People often try drugs such as marijuana because they feel pressured by peers to be part of the group. Children must be taught how to say no to peer pressure to try drugs. Parents can get involved by becoming informed about marijuana and by talking to their children about drug use.

    What is marijuana "burnout"?
    "Burnout" is a term first used by marijuana smokers themselves to describe the effect of prolonged use. Young people who smoke marijuana heavily over long periods of time can become dull, slow moving, and inattentive. These "burned-out" users are sometimes so unaware of their surroundings that they do not respond when friends speak to them, and they do not realize they have a problem. How long do chemicals from marijuana stay in the body after the drug is smoked?
    When marijuana is smoked, THC, its active ingredient, is absorbed by most tissues and organs in the body; however, it is primarily found in fat tissues. The body, in its attempt to rid itself of the foreign chemical, chemically transforms the THC into metabolites. Urine tests can detect THC metabolites for up to a week after people have smoked marijuana. Tests involving radioactively labeled THC have traced these metabolites in animals for up to a month.
     
  14. element7

    element7 Random fool

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    Thanks for understanding where I was coming from. I think I really just threw Humboldt out there as a theoretical example. I've been to the area myself and understand what the terrain has to offer. It wouldn't surprise me though with the ingenuity (and literal genius) of some of the growers that they would find a way to maximize and increase the size of their ops.

    I came within a moments pause of bringing this up myself. But boy, what a can of worms :)

    These last two paragraphs really clarify the idea and jive with the reality of the situation. I'd love to know more about how this is working out because you're starting to win me over on the idea friend.

    Also, on the link trippin' posted. I read that with great interest. It is a bit frustrating that we have to move so cautiously through the moral landscape and all of the false ideals that are perpetuated on a daily basis. Really, it's mind boggling how time after time the powers that be prop up one false accounting after the other and it's swallowed whole by an unknowing public. Education, education, education. Every single stoner needs to get their ducks in a row so that at any given time the argument would be consistent whether it be in an 'official' sense or just a common conversation on the street.
     
  15. TrippinBTM

    TrippinBTM Ramblin' Man

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    There's so much bad info in your post that I'm not going to quote it, I'll just quote the bold parts, number them, and respond that way. People will have to look back to his post to see what I'm referring to.

    1. notice how this leaves out any positive effects, like the high. Believe it or not, things can be good and positive even if they have no practical value, being high feels good, and that's good enough. It also doesn't matter if actual sensitivity to touch sound or sight is increased...the point is perception is enhanced, and anyone who's ever been high will tell you there IS a difference in touch sound and sight when high and when not high

    2. Well, no argument there. At least it said they dissappear quickly.

    3. This is true of many substances, even of things like sex and chocolate. Not totally invalid, though.

    4. First "the effects of marijuana can impair learning..." is misleading. That's true if you're high all the time, but marijuana's effects last a few hours, and most kids who smoke are not high in school most of the time. Marijuana's after effects (longer term, not the effects of the high) have not been shown to reduce intelligence or learning capability. Also, it tries to use the gateway drug theory (in disguise) which is widely known to be a bullshit argument

    5. First, studies of the effects of marijuana and driving are inconclusive, with findings going both ways; improvement and impairment. Second, it includes alcohol in there, which is irrelevant to the marijuana debate. Everyone knows drinking and driving is bad (as well as illegal, despite alcohol being legal); anyways, just because we want marijuana legalized doesn't mean anyone wants it legal to smoke and drive. Impaired driving is not good, ever.

    6. Cigarettes do the same thing, but are legal. Pregnant women are told not to smoke. This is not an anti-legalization argument. Also, the reduced fertility in men is very short term, sperm counts return to normal within a day. Even then it isn't a very large drop anyways, not usually.

    7. Not as dangerous as it seems, because blood vessels dilate, thus blood pressure rises little.

    8. First, if marijuana was cheaper and easier to aquire, people could eat it and have no lung effects. Even so, people are allowed to smoke, which is dangerous. This clearly is not a debate about marijuana being a dangerous drug that needs to be kept away from the idiot public who can't make their own decisions. If it was, all dangerous drugs like cigs and alcohol would be illegal. But this isn't the point. Also, interesting that it says most stoners smoke cigs too, which is irrelevant, we're talking about marijuana here, not marijuana and tobacco.

    9. Though I won't try to say marijuana smoke won't cause cancer, these studies are inconclusive. Many show that marijuana can halt the growth of tumors, even reverse their development. That said, it's not good to inhale smoke of any kind, and I don't disagree that chemicals in marijuana smoke could cause cancer.

    10. No major argument here.

    11. Ok, what's your point? Some people can't handle pot? Some people can't handle positions of power or high stress jobs, should those be illegal too? Regardless, this isn't a large percentage of smokers, most are your average citizen who goes to work, has a family and/or a normal social life, etc. And maybe if marijuana wasn't illegal we could get some real info in drug education programs about how to recognize if you have a problem, rather than our "abstinence only" programs which don't work because some people will always try things.

    12. Fat soluable chemicals, including important vitamins, stay in the body longer, thats a fact. THC metabolites (and THC itself) are not dangerous chemicals.

    Incidentally, the fact that THC metabolites stay in the body so long is why drug testing industry is doing so well. If pot were legal, many would go out of business, because most other drugs (coke, opiates, mushrooms, etc) only stay in the body a few days. When you are being drug tested, you are mainly being tested for marijuana...because it's statisticly about all they can test for. Even light users are screwed over by these laws; they smoke two or three times a month and they can't get a job because of THC's fat soluability.
     
  16. AnarchistScott

    AnarchistScott Member

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    If it wernt for weed i would drink alcohol instead. the days before i discovered weed i would be drinkin everyweekend to excess, running in front of cars, smashing lights, yelling at the top of my voice, generally being a public nuisance wen im drunk. now after discovering weed, on the weekend i just smoke weed, play on my game cube, and watch tv.....and NOW im a criminal?
     
  17. Eugene

    Eugene Senior Member

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    I'm surprised no one has brought this up so.

    Back in the day when the states were first criminalizing MJ half said it was because they were afraid that the junkies would switch over because in 1915 they made that illegal, and that alcoholics would switch over because with prohibition that was made illegal.
    Now, we now know that relatively MJ is much more benign than alcohol. Low risk of overdose, not as harmful physically, no physical addiction and lesser psychological addiction. Alcohol, when viewed objectively is a terrible drug.
    Now, society would have a net benefit if fewer people drank and more people smoked MJ.
    Don't get me wrong, any drug has negative effects, and weed is addictive, but compared to almost every other drug it's not even in the same ballpark.
     
  18. Rasheeke

    Rasheeke Member

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    I supprt dicrminalization of pot. Because i feel it's done little to no harm. Though i do fear if it were legallized that tobacco companies would then start selling it. Growers would get lazy and people would eventually give in and start buying it from the stores. We all say we would never do that, but, we can speak for the generations ahead of us. Then pot would be grown just as tobacco is, and they'd spray for bugs, and add some chemicals, indirectly or directly, and there will just be more shit added to it, to the point where pot might be just as bad as ciggs.

    I want to be able to walk down the street smoking a joint and not have to worry about the cops. So i may be contradicting myself, just i fear the bad things that may occur due to legalizing it. But the reasons it was made illegal, and the reasons it stays illegal, are quite stupid.
     
  19. Rasheeke

    Rasheeke Member

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    On another note, if it were dicriminalized, or even legallized, there would be less in jail. So less people having to be fed. So that's alot of our tax money saved.

    Taxing marijuana, in theory sounds alright, if it goes to the right places, and its not an asshole amount of a tax.
     
  20. Silliewizard123

    Silliewizard123 Member

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    I'm for decriminalizing merryjowarner it's much safer than pharm-corp drugs.
    Silliewizard123
    sez: Talk sense & you'll never get a government job.
    Support your local witch
     

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