The Irish In 1870 And Muslims In 2016

I feel certain that some percetage of the conservatives verbally bashing Muslim immigrants are of Irish exraction. (Patrick Buchanan?) That is hilarious. For a lot of US history, Catholic immigrants were viewed as subversive, and not always without justification.

In the 1870's, 38 US states saw fit to amend their state constitutions because of largely Irish-Catholic immigration. American Catholics were clamoring for tax dollars to be used to support their K-12 schools. For non-Catholic Americans, separation of church and state was hip! People wanted to prevent their taxes from being used for Catholic schools. Ulysses Grant was President, and publicly spoke in support of separation of church and state.

True, Protestants made sure their prayers were said in schools, so the Catholics had reason to not support schools which discriminated against them. But the answer wasn't a separate system supported by taxpayers. Today, public schools have no teacher-led prayers, yet the leadership of the Catholic Church still clamors for tax money.

I just see the irony, and am not calling for banning of Muslims or Catholics. However, both should appreciate how secularism benifits religion.

 

I went to Catholic school and never heard of any public taxes going to support any part of the private education.

A lot has changed. Today any Christian group, unless they are very liberal, only wants to vote for other Christians. They see anything and everything that is non-christian as bad.

 

From school bus subsidies to vouchers and charter schools, the Catholic Church has sought taxpayer support for many a decade.

https://www.mackinac.org/1082

I agree with Benjamin Franklin, who said lack of government support would cause bad faiths to wither, decay and die, and leave the good ones, which can survive without government support. Take Indiana. Until a voucher program bosted enrollment 70%, Catholic K-12 education in the state was fading away.

 

I went to a Catholic school, and for the most part liked it. They got no tax money that I know about. Today, Catholic Charities helps homeless people more than any other organization. There are others who have more money; but, Catholic Charities does the most with what they have. International refugees get sponsored to come to the USA, and get placed by Catholic Charities. I don't understand why anyone would want to come to a nation that has so much hate for outsiders; but, they do come. Maybe they watch too many movies and think they will become millionaires if they make it to the USA?

 

I think the vouchers are so their tax money that they worked for and paid, goes to the education of their children.

The real problem is there is no separation of church beliefs and how people vote. They have no idea what exists and really don't care to learn or change themselves. Their just sure they know what reality is, that's my problem.

 

I know what you are saying. Often people see the world through the glasses that make up their religious thinking. So a Catholic sees it the Catholic way, the Muslim and the Jew will see it their way. Everyone one should try collectivist thinking. We should do what is good for everyone.

 

I think they try to organize a collective thinking. I believe in having correct collective thinking and this is what gets me about religion. Science is provable, religion isn't so much.

 

Traditionally, the term "provable" has always been a part of science. Science is where you take your theory and test it under strict circumstances and conditions. When you acquire the same results over and again, you present your theory for peer review. That is what sets hard science apart from fields like liberal arts. Science got its birth in Philosphy, which is a part of liberal arts, but soon gained a place for itself alone in the academic world. So, I agree with you that science must be taken into consideration in modern day society. However, traditional religion has long been the very reason for regulating morality. Without religion many people would rob banks, gas stations, homes, etc. Religion plays on their guilt and prevents them from violating the core of who they are. So, I don't think humanity is ready to graduate to the next level, where we use science and have no need for the old biblical tales.

 

So your saying Atheist will rob banks?

 

I am saying people without a morality code "might" violate the rights of others, or tresspass against them, simply because they hold no such code. Historically, religion has been used to regulate the masses. I know of no case where an Atheist code had regulated people in the history of any nation. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

I disagree. Many thieves are a follower of some religion. Take the Catholic heavy Mafia; the IRA.

How many crosses ride the necks or tattooed upon the skin of many bank robbers and murderers?

Not to mention Child molestation among Catholic Priests.

Religion just means they can go to confession ( in the case of Catholics) say a few Hail Marys' and all is well. Christians pray for forgiveness and ride the pine every Sunday in the local Church.

Religion does not deter a thiefs' mindset.

Even some serial killers claim they are working for God.

Research may tell that perhaps Religion CAUSES more violence then suppresses. This does not include the Radical Followers.

 

The flawed reasoning of Catholic leaders, and many a lay Catholic, is that because Catholic parents send their children to private schools and pay for such, they should not have to pay for public schools via taxes. Hey, I don't fly, but don't object to my taxes being used for airports. In a democracy, support for free, public education cannot be optional. In addition, this country would never have desegregated had we been burdened with charter schools, religious schools, and voucher schemes.

Caste. Family. Patriarchy. I don't want my tax dollars going for them. Don't care if it's Baptist, Jewish, Muslim, or Catholic.

Charter schools are a way to privatize K-12 education, and turn it over to 2 groups: for-profit companies/ banks, and patriarchal religion. Chase Bank, the Catholic Church, and conservative Protestant groups are all about Charters and vouchers. Chase has donated 300 million to the cause of charters, and Wal-Mart is a big supporter, also.

 

My opposition to what the Catholic church does is not the same as disliking Catholics on Principal.

 

No argument from me. I was not trying to sell religion, just said that mankind needs a code of morality.

 

I was not trying to sell Catholic religion. I was just thinking of what John Jay said: If men were angels, we would not need government. John Jay was one of the founders of The USA, and co-wrote the Federalist Papers. So, I have always noticed that religion sort of keeps men in line, when other methods don't work. Some might respond better to a generic force from government, others from a church or mosque. This thread started with the analogy of Irish and Muslim suffering discrimination. I think the discrimination is real, and that American society seems to look at the rest of the world through racial glasses. Racism is bad; in contrast, the celebration of a people's heritage is not bad. So we can recognize a people by their unique culture and religion, without hate towards them.

 

I agree in part. In the 18th and 19th and early 20th centuries, Religion did sway men for the better. I would argue against the Catholic side more the Quaker followers and their 'wholesome' attitude towards life. Look no further then modern Amish. Wholesome and down to earth; yes many parts seem constricting but over all it is just hardwork, family and God.

The later 20th and into the 21st century, Religion became misconstrued and the churches became powerful again. This is when the benefit of belief turned sour. The 80's evangelists come to mind. How many remember Tammy Fay Baker and her 5 kilos of make-up asking for pledges so as to be saved in Gods eyes.

Today, it seems that there is so much outwardly thinking against religion that the effect it once had is no longer valid. Science has taken hold and for the better. Mind you, you need to look past the 'mainstream' science and do a little research.

Back to the question at hand. If you want to attend a Religious school then you should pay; do not ask tax payers to flip the bill; we already pay for the Public school system. No different from going to an Ivy league School or Community College or State run institutions. Probably the same education but without the prestige.

 

Yes, I recall the Jim and Tammy show on TV. I recall the Mega Churches going up all over the USA, starting the era of The Commercial Church. Today we have a very dangerous attempt at taking control of the US government by these Commercial Christians, who's main character quality is the hate of anyone who does not look like them, or think like, or does not go along with them. Ted Cruz and Donald Trump are examples of such fake and Commercial Christians.

 

The law in the US is atheist albeit Christian values for the most part.

I think unity and harmony don't require religion to function in society. But this is getting a bit off topic. Lot's of people use eastern moral codes like the idea of Karma. Not sure what Native Americans use for morality

 

You should read up on the Navajo religion. It is very beautiful, and all about the restoring of harmony to the world. When I started to learn the Navajo religion, I quickly realized that they are much more civilized than "others" in this world. I say others, because I do not wish to insult anyone, today.

 

The 'religious' values are a basic portion of our everyday lives. We don't need to go to church or pray or follow a specific 'Religion' to live a clean spiritual life.

The difference is the followers of any "religion" also have a belief in a specific Deity that needs to coincide with our basic daily practices. Without the belief of said Deity, you cannot live a 'proper' life; to which you most certainly can.

What chuffs me in regards to religion is that the bases of all Religions stem from the same stories or figures but yet are perceived differently from the demography of where you come from. To some extend that leeds one to doubt the legitimacy of "God" and the writings of the Bible. If the Bible is "gods" word, how is there various different scripts to the movie. Makes you question the writings and the ideology the writers had.

Throw in the book of Enoch, which comes across as a ridiculous tale, to the mix as the part that was 'edited' out and it throws the whole aspect upside down to enhance an already elaborate tale.

While I regard the Bible as a metaphoric script not so much as truth, I venture into the ancient tribal beliefs of the Olmecs, Myans, Egyptions and so on to see that there is something extra special out there and perhaps we are all wrong.

On the other hand, is it possible that what the Ancient Societies saw and new, considering the simplistic clear thinking minds they possessed, one wonders whether their experiences were dimensionally encoded events. Which would explain all we don't know in regards to their technology and eyewitness accounts.