The Improbability of God

Evolution is not based on faith... like all sciences - evolution is based on evidence.. we have fossils of animals that no longer exist, and lack of fossiles for animals that exist now. what happened, did god suddenly decide to kill one animal and invent a new one in it's place? According to you, all animals that exist now have existed forever? So what about dinosaurs? If the world is only 6000 odd years old, you would have though there would be written records to show dinosaurs existing at the same time as man?

As for trans species - why not look at the human race itself, we've got a whole series of fossil evidence leading all the way from Lucy, to modern man... Also, if man and apes are not descended from a common ancester, why do we share 98% of our DNA with chimps?

As for the "theory" of evolution, everything starts as a theory, even if you use a fact based approach to develop a new idea in science (such as you find evidence to suggest that, for example, a way to cure the common cold is to bounce the person on their head a few times, because one person who had a cold did this, and the next day was cured)... you now have a "theory", because it happened once... what you then need to do, before it can become accepted as modern fact, is test that theory, even try to prove it incorrect.. if it's able to stand up to the tests, then it can be written in the science journals, and accepted by all... but it has to go though the process of testing first... so sure, at the beginning, evolution was a theory.... but that theory has now been tested and restested so amny times, that it is now a FACT!!!

The truth of the matter is that this evidence is overwealming, and it's hurting your faith as a result, and you feel scared to accept the world without your faith, so you choose to ignore the evidence that's plain to see, and sit in your little box, unreachable by everyone. If you need faith to live your life, fair enough, who am I to say otherwise... but please, don't let your faith blind you to the truth.

 

Believing in evolution doesn't necessarily mean there is no god. Even the Pope has accepted the big bang theory.

 

That's a fair point, and one that I accept.. evolution alone is not enough to disprove god (the fact is I don't believe it ever going to be possable to either prove or disprove god, god means so many diffrent things to diffrent people)...

But the article accounts for this:

The point of the articles however is not to set out to prove or disprove.. just to suggest there is an "Improbability" that god exists... (and the whole secular humanism movement is to provide backup for athiests and free thinkers against the religious right, who seek to control, under the name of god, a concept we don't accept).

 

Umm, studies found that there is a positive correlation between being prescribed antidepressants and suicide. People who are prescribed antidepressants are assumed have imbalanced brain chemistry, and messing with something you do not completely understand (this includes God) is a gamble. That's why the cases of antidepressants causing the opposite effect have to be studied, in order to know when it is safe to use antidepressants and when they can cause more harm than help (seemed that it was prevalent among teenagers (the suicide correlation), possibly because the brain is still developing at this age?).

Hoorah for you!!!

Sure about that? Many of my friends have been routinely incarcerated for various criminal activities, etc. and not many of my close friends have integrated with society in a manner that allows them to pursue their dreams. I have been homeless, hitchhiked, been a teenage runaway, worked in dead end jobs with no hope of advancement, got stuck in Texas, been convicted of a felony, gone hungry, have been in numerous hopeless situations, etc. I have never realised any of my dreams, and have no means of achieving them (in sight). I have been happy however, and have the comradeship of others that have been used and abused by society.

That would be nice if it happened to the people I know. When I was hitchhiking in Oklahoma, a street hustler stole food for me from a couple of convenience stores because I was down and out, and they had been there. Is this a miracle, or is it just the common bond of the down and out, the people who know how hard and uncaring life can be, so they reach out to others that have been treated poorly by an uncaring world.

You ever here of something called 'the power of positive thinking'? That believing something good will happen releases anti-stress hormones in your body which speed/increase the healing of tissues/etc.?

In addition, to say I am blinded to God is a mistatement. I just don't kiss ass like the majority of theists. I tell it like it is, and don't try to tell people that everything is all right, because it isn't. God is a fucked up, needy individual that hurts what God creates because God want's attention (God is lonely), and when everything goes Good, people think it is because they conquer nature, instead of realizing that God has called off the dogs of war. It's also necessary for the natural world to be there and for us to learn about it, because our bodies and minds are part of it, and it teaches us that God is not everything (although God has the power to control anything), which allows us to see God without thinking we are a part of God (which alleviates God's lonliness).

Umm, Miracle means many things. I would not call a Dr. stupid for saying "an extremely outstanding or unusual event has occured" (one of the definitions of miracle). If he presented sufficient evidence (not just hearsay from a bunch of rabid biblethumpers) that divine intervention had occured (I would have to witness the event, or have one of my completely non-believing aquaintances witness it, because how can you trust a proselytizer that profits from claiming miracles occured?) I would believe it as well.

Faith:firm belief in something for which there is no proof (m-w.com, this is the definition you should be using for this argument).

Scientists see a possible pattern and test it to see if there is proof that the pattern exists in reality (e=mc^2). You know why they test it? Because the do not have faith that their hypothesis is correct. They get proof for or against their idea, and either keep it because the data supports it or toss it because it does not. Shit, many scientists had faith that the church was right that the earth was the center of the universe (argumentum ad authoritatum). Did this faith speed discovery of the truth, or hinder it?

 

To campell34:

The Natural World is a book of truth which you don't like. Even when the evidence is in front of you. .... You see, if you accept what is real you might have to change or modify you life, which is something you might not be willing to do. I have seen evidence of the natural world. Find Reality while there is still time.

 

"so your friend is God? Or what's up with the capitals?"

Yeah, pretty much.


That didn't answer my question..

I must say you have a very fascinating view on life.. but I'm still kinda confused.. do you call yourself Christian?[/QUOTE]I attended 8 years of Catholic School, and needless to say.. the religion teacher couldn't stand me. neither could the priest.
I asked the wrong questions... the one's your not supposed to ask when your being taught one particular religion. I always questioned an all powerfull God's existence.

Not to discredit or dismiss the existence of the characters in the book, or the sacrifices or pain they might have experienced in their lives... but personally I think everybody should have a bible in the bathroom in case of emergencies.
The suffering that Jesus experienced in his life, the beating he took or the three days he hung on a cross.... dying for US,
doesn't justify or overshadow the other suffering that takes place throughout this world everyday.because of the God you find in the bible.
Depending on how you see the world today, you might see that we are almost wasting human life by the masses because of our beliefs in this one man's way of life, or death.


"What is right in front of the worlds eyes is the Bible. The proof of the Bible will be found in the hundreds of fulfilled prophecies which the world and often the church ignores. The prophecies are still being fulfilled in the day we live. The Jews return to Israel, their recapture of Jerusalem, the sealing of the East Gate, America, Russia, the Anti-Christ to come. The destruction of nations in one hours time. It's all there and a lot more. Only God could of put a book with so much knowledge of the future together. The God of the Bible states that people would rather believe a lie rather than the truth and in the end will reject His words."

campbell,
I know it makes many predictions and that's convient, maybe that's because it is the 'main' book that we have had to follow, or turn away from. But there are entirely too many contradictions for it to be - true.
An all loving and all powerfull God does not exist in one entity or source of creation anywhere in our spectrum of reality.

"Yet I would say, those who ignore the prophecies of the Bible are the one's looking at the world with rose colored glasses. The Bible speaks the prophetic truth which is verifiable, yet you must ignore. Because to acknowledge what is true requires you to live for God, which might be inconvenient for you."

maybe it won't be too much of an inconvience for you to discuss a possibly pivotal issue of the bible that it appears as tho' nobody else in the world is willing to discuss.
http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52996

According to the bible, we are not looking for the God who's possible of creating immaculate conceptions yet, we are looking for this one 'man' to come through and change the rotation of the earth, and try to save the planet first.
Of the many other parts this person would have to play, he is also supposed to be a very powerfull cold and heartless person. and evil too!

You wanna bible thump, or discuss God?

and does that answer your question velvet?

 

This is why i'm an advocate of masturbation... it can make you feel good.. and feeling good is always the first step to recovery. Next time you're feeling down about something... have a wank... it'll help you see the world in another right (and it's been proven, that masturbation can help reduce the risk of prostate cancer... so it's both mental and physical healing... how's that for a double whammy).

Now i agree that for some people, a belief in god might help them recover.. they believe there is a powerful force looking over them, healing them, and so they don't give up... and by not giving up, they are healing themselves...

 

all i see in you is a person profoundly moved by his own opinion.

 

Is that not true of everyone?

 

"This is why i'm an advocate of masturbation... it can make you feel good.. and feeling good is always the first step to recovery. Next time you're feeling down about something... have a wank... it'll help you see the world in another right (and it's been proven, that masturbation can help reduce the risk of prostate cancer... so it's both mental and physical healing... how's that for a double whammy)."

Earlier in this thread you asked how does somebody know that they are on the right path... well,
not for nothing, but it looks like your on the right one.

It's all in YOUR hands!

*smooch*

 

Take the plank from your own eye so you can see clearly to remove the splinter from your brothers.

I am profoundly moved by everything I experience, and my thoughts (right or wrong) are formed by these experiences.

 

The faith in the Bible is built on facts that can be tested and observed. It is the fulfillment of Bible prophecy which is the test, which few people ever consider.
There are hundreds of prophecies that can be checked by historical evidence and evidences that can be observed today. You will not find this kind of evidence outside of the Bible.

 

Running a little late on time but will respond as soon as I can. The Bible speaks of Dinosaurs in the book of Job. And it actuall describes a living one.

In order to claim that the genetic make-up of man and chimpanzee bear 98% similarity, the genome of the chimpanzee also has to be mapped just as that of man's the two has to be compared, and the result of this comparison has to be obtained. However no such result is available, because so far, only the gene of mankind has been mapped. No such research is yet done for the chimpanzee. In reality, the 98% similarity between the genes of man and ape, which now and then becomes an agenda item, is a propaganda oriented slogan deliberately invented years ago. The similarity is an extraordinarily exaggerated generalisation grounded on the similarity in the amino acid sequences of some 30-40 basic proteins present in man and chimpanzee. Asequence analysis has been made with a method named "DNA hybridization" On the DNA sequences that are correlated with these proteins and only those limited number of proteins have been compared.
However there are about hundred thousand genes, and therefore 100 thousand proteins coded by these genes in humans. For that reason, there is no scientific basis for claiming that all the genes of man and ape are 98% similar only because of the similarity in 40 out of 100,000 proteins. The 40 proteins are also controversial.

 

Ohw yawn.. it's really like talking to a brick wall. Apparently we have a very very different view on the Bible and what you call 'evidence'..

But again, yeay for you having fun and enjoying your faith

 

exactly. quit lying to yourself. you know nothing. just like the rest of us. leave people to their faith, we'll leave you to yours (which appears to be merely faith in your own rightness)

 

That's a stupid comment. I know many things, and avoid lying to myself even to the point of pain.

You are one of those who claims to know nothing and then makes a statement as if it were a fact? Don't you see how arrogant and stupid that is? You act like you know something about me and a whole group of people and at the same time you claim to know nothing.

No. My faith is on the table for you to discuss all you want. If you show me something wrong with it, I will acknowledge it, instead of blindly defending my faith with mental acrobats that avoid the truth.
If a faith is built upon the truth, it would not fall before every logical challenge to it:
"Anyone who hears my teaching and obeys it is wise, like a person who builds a house on solid rock. Anyone who hears my teaching and ignores it is foolish, like a person who builds a house on sand."
If you do not build your faith upon the rock of truth, "When the rains and floods come and the winds beat against the house, it will fall with a mighty crash."

Liar, you aren't doing this. In fact, in your comment, you accuse my faith of being something which it is not.

 

If Skip didn't intend for people of different faith to communicate here then the religion forums wouldn't exist. I'm sure Kharakov isn't out in the streets every day hunting down christians to debate with. But this, on the other hand, is a place ment for debate and conversation.

 

Hear hear.. but the problem with religion/spirituality (including all world views) is that it is sooooo personal for people that it's often hard to debate in a normal, quiet way. Things get heated, get out of hand and people start bashing eachother.. or, people like me become sarcastic. The thing is that you can debate it all you want, but it's basically the same stuff over and over and over and that's about it.

Ah well.. still interesting sometimes though Plus there's nothing on TV lately

 

I fully agree... the problem is that a lot of people find it hard to accept critism in what they believe in, or find it hard to understand that other people might have a diffrent view to them... So they get highly offended...

It's a simple as this, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen... this is full of heated debate.. but that's all it is, *debate*... and as long as it remains debate, and does not turn into a flame war, then I see nothing wrong with coming in here and posting your own ideas and opinions.

However, I think that there should be two religion forums... one set-up for debate (because we all enjoy a good debate) and one for members of that specific community *only* to post in... Now I realise this means giving people labels (christan, athiest, pagan, etc.) and it does not always work out that well (not to meantion the fact it highlights people's diffrences), but sometimes people like to hang out with people of the same ideal as them, and talk about that specific point of view...

 

Well Amanda here is some of that overwealming evidence.

LUCY,remember she was the one you mentioned as one of the Icon's of overwhelming evidence. Lucy was a skeleton who's remains were assembled and gathered from an area 200ft. by 1 mile. Lucy was discovered by a man named Johanson. As it turns out, Lucy was later determined to be a primate. Another words, an Ape. Then there was NEANDERTHAL MAN. This many thought was the missing link. Further study revealed it was the remains of a man with a bone disorder. He was 100% human. Then there was PILT DOWN MAN. Found in a gravel pit in England in 1912. This fossil proved the evolution of man, but was later found to be a complete forgery 41 years later. The skull was found to be of modern age. The fragments had been chemically stained to give the appearance of age, and the teeth had been filed down. Then there was NEBRASKA MAN: A single tooth, discovered in Nebraska in 1922 grew an entire evolution link between man and monkey, until another identical tooth was found which protruding from the jawbone of a wild pig. THIS FOSSIL WAS PART OF THE EVIDENCE ENTERED TO SUBSTANTIATE EVOLUTION IN THE "SCOPES MONKEY TRIAL." Then there was ORCE MAN: Found in the southern Spanish town of Orce in 1982, and hailed as the oldest fossilized human remains ever found in Europe. One year later officials admitted the skull fragment was not human but probably came from a 4 month old Donkey. Scientists had said the skull belonged to a 17 year old man who lived 900,000 to 1.6 million years ago. The list could go on and on. When the evolutionist discover something it makes front page news. When it turns out to be a fake you never hear any more about it. Yet the damage is done, because you have a population that now believes it's all true. THIS IS THE KIND OF EVIDENCE YOU EMBRACE AS OVER WHELMING TRUTH. 2000 years ago the God of the Bible anticipated this kind of activity, and issued a warning in the Bible. In 1 Timothy 6:20 the Bible states, we should beware of science falsely so called.