The Improbability of God

See.. and that's why I don't want to discuss religion anymore.. because Christians just have an answer for everything now don't you.. it's really completely hopeless..
*sigh*

 

Campbell, you have no clue.
Nostradamus never used tea leaves. Did you make that up yourself?
His only device, clearly a tool of Satan.......a bowl of dihydrogen oxide.
OOoooh, scary stuff.

 

Hey.. maybe he drank tea in the mean time.. chewing on the bitter leaves.. getting insights... you don't know that! It was probably revealed to campbell in a dream or when he stepped on the bathroom floor

 

No offense, but if you don't want to discuss religion, why are you posting in the religion forum?

 

Aaah, yes, it is crystal clear to me now. If I spend years reading the Bible and various commentaries on it, my conclusions are nonsense because I am a sucker for 'reason'. What a terrible handicap to have to bear. Since there is no private interpretation of scripture, my views are totally meaningless. Okay, I got that. And that applies to everyone on earth. Oh wait, except you. Cuz you, well, God and you have this little deal going on, so when you spout your version, we better sit up and listen cuz God lets you in on the 'real' meaning.
I guess we should all just make you Rex Mundi then, huh?

 

Notice the word 'anymore' in my sentence? Ok.. well.. that means that I don't want to discuss religion anymore It's not that hard

Plus this is the Philosophy and Religion forum.. and since Philosophy comes from filo (loving) and sofia (knowledge) talking about the existance of a 'God' is a very interesting subject. However, it is impossible to talk about this with using only ratio, since people like you and campbell will say that God Himself (you know, the dude we're debating) provides you with The Truth and Complete Wisdom.. so.. now.. that's cheating you see

Get it? No offense..

 

Without a relationship with Christ, no one would know what the Bible really means. That is what we keep stressing it. The promise of Christ living inside his believers is for everyone. who desires it. I have talked quite in depth about this in my salvation post. You can read your Bible a hundred times if you like, but without having a personal relationship with him, you are just reading a book.

 

Yes, I am aware of that. However, more often than not, those who say that they do not wish to discuss it anymore, continue to post about it on various threads within this forum.

I'm not trying to be rude. I am just stating that conversations tend to continue, even when someone says that do not wish to take part.

 

Ok.. maybe then I should say that (for now) I don't want to discuss it with people that aren't willing to look outside their own box and discuss other possibilities anymore. Because the whole point of discussing the option of there being a God doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you have people coming in and talking about how things like the Bible hold the actual truth.. because those aren't FACTS..

For a discussion you need to have certain guidelines, rules of the game, so to say. One of those is that you need to use arguments that have a logical meaning to everyone. Someone how, as soon as someone becomes (very) religious (and monotheistic, may I add), that option seems to fail for some reason. Not with all people though (professors at my Catholic university were perfectly able to have a great discussion about the probability of God and still be very religious themselves)..

 

Once again this is simply a case of the winners writing the history books... it's all very well you sitting there saying that the church had him killed for being a false profit... but hang on... wasn't jesus also killed? Does that mean jesus is a false profit too? You can't use one rule for one and another for another.

 

I'm with velvet.. it's very hard to have this chat if you're not willing to open yourself up to our side of the argument... you just keep spewing the same lines over and over again... and we try and open up another route of discussion, but you use exactly the same defence... it's like talking to a brick wall.

 

I contend that without having a relationship with Ronald you cannot understand what the Bible really means. Your interpretations are incorrect because you do not accept Ronald within your heart. Jesus was a false prophet, Ronald is the true son of God.

Can you refute this within your own criteria for belief?

 

It's because they have no more to say. You can always talk a religious nut into a logical corner, because these people don't rely on logic, they need faith, and lots of it, to believe what they believe. Their faith is like a big pair of rose colored glasses that they can't seem to take off, even if for a momentary debate on the subject of religion. Of course if they were to take them off (to consider the logical sides of the issue) they would be at risk of losing their faith.

There have been studies of the brain that have shown when someone is defending their beliefs (doesn't have to be religious) they generally use the emotional side of their brain, whereas someone who is attacking the belief are using the logical side of their brain. So a christian will basically use more logic when attacking an atheist belief than they will defending their own. Of course that works both ways, just about everyone is guilty.

Anyway, you can't blame them too much for spewing the same lines over and over. They only have one book to work from. We have so much more.

 

Well, all I can say to that is that since I was 8 I have been on Jesus' side. That was when I felt He had the right message. The only thing I can't say is that I believe He died on the cross to wash away my sins. Even if He did, I wouldn't want to pawn them off on Him. So, I am a big Jesus fan, but if you are right, it's: Hi Ho Hi Ho, It's off to hell I go.

 

Clearly, you did not read what I said. The church did not have him killed for being a false prophet. The church was full of false prophecy, hence, why they killed.

It's rather quite amusing. We used science in relation with the Bible, and yet, others still try and refute it. I used scientific facts to explain how fasting was beneficial towards the body. I have showed a doctor's study based on prayer verses modern medicine, and his interesting findings, mentioning where the article was located so one could inspect it themselves. But no one was interested in that. You are merely interested in reading what you think you can use in your defensive to claim that Christians are psychologically disturbed.

No, I never use logic. I guess I must have some pretty stupid professors who just hand out grades like candy. I suppose their degrees all came from a cereal box.


This reminds me of Pavlov's dogs. The mere idea of a Christian explaining anything makes certain unbelievers salivate with ways they can think of to try and discredit any belief. The meat has been laid in front of them and the bell has been rung. A Christian speaks and some unbelievers flock like flies on a dead carcass.

I have full understanding of how one does not believe in God. I understand that pressure stemming from one's nature and nuture in relation to faith can cause one to propel themself away from the idea that a supreme Creator might exsist. I am fully aware of the fact that the idea of God seems improbable in certain people's lives. However, I have also seen people's lives change around with any outside intervention. I have witnessed people who grow up in a less than desirable atmosphere, develop an addiction to drugs, walk around strapped with a weapon, and live a life of crime transform into a peaceful, gentle person without any help from Psychologists and Psychiatrists. I have seen people overcome drug addictions immediately without any counseling or detoxification. Many would claim, "self help", was the answer. However, self help does not work in that fashion. Someone who suffers from severe agoraphobia will not make up their mind to be healed, and walk right out of the house and into a large social setting the next day.

I have seen people struggle for years, going from Psychologist, to Psychologist. Trying hypnotism. Wasting money on therapy. Taking anti depressant like they came from a Pez despenser. Not once have they made any progress in these programs. However, when they come in contact with the Lord, their lives do a 360. The depression is gone, the fear is gone. As wonderful as my Psychology professors are, there are people they counsel who will never be helped, regardless what approach they try. The funny thing is that these Psychiatrists, who only rely on logic, cannot believe in these small miracles. Instead of being awed and glad that a patient they have watched struggle and fall further into a hole, has finally won the battle, they can do nothing but try and think of a scientific way to dispute it. Understandable? Yes, I do understand that someone who dedicates their whole life to logic would want to try and find ways to dispute the fact that a God could have intervened. However, these Doctors cannot provide the answers.

I have logic and I have faith. Logic can only take me so far. Faith can heal me completely.

 

I have logic and I have faith. Logic can only take me so far. Faith can heal me completely. Epiphany__________________


that is a great quote. I agree. Faith is far more important to me than logic.

Einstein said very similar things.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." “My sense of God is my sense of wonder at the universe.” “There are two way to live your life, as though nothing is a miracle, or as though everything is a miracle.” “Imagination is more important than knowledge.” Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

 

Well i'm so glad that you have your faith, and that you believe that it's keeping you alive... And i'm sure, in a way, it is (it's giving you a reason to live)... but that does not change the fact that it's all YOU that's doing all these things you thank god for.

Anyway, I think that's the end of this discission... there is no actual proof of anything.. just speculation... how do you know that the night someone turned to god, wasn't the night they were going to recover anyway?

I can show you many examples of people who have no belief in god healing themselves via meditation and hyposis... which proves without a doubt that god had nothing to do with the healings.... in the cases were god has been involved, there is no absoloute proof that god had anything to do with it (as i said above, maybe it was just their time).

as for doctors not being able to explain it... doctors are not masters of the universe... they don't know everything... we'res till learning... what might look like a mracle today (and remember, a miracle is nothing more than something which can't be explained... not specicily devine intervention) will be explained in the future, once our medical knowledge expands.

(back in the past, people with mental problems were thought to have been taken over my demons... we now know more about mental conditions, and no longer blame it on the devil, because we understand moe than we did.. and as time goes on, we will forvever learn more and more)

 

For many people, these work. (Otherwise there would not be a market for them)

For suggestable people, words can work wonders upon their temperament. Belief that you are going to get something good (a carrot attached to a stick in front of you) can make some people work harder, while at the same time they feel better about life. As long as people believe that by working they will get to the carrot, they will be happy with the fact they will eventually reach the carrot (if you convince them they must work their whole lives for it and will get it after they die, you have the person hook, line, and sinker). Now some people realize that they are not as successful as others, so they are content to deceive themselves with an imaginary carrot at the end of their lives in order to enjoy the shitty life they do have.

You know, it's only because people find logical scientific explanations for stuff that we have the lifestyle we have today. If instead of looking for the natural explanation and finding a solution to the problem, people kept relying on God, the world would be a miserable place (because 100% of the time God does not solve problems in a miraculous way, but allows things to progress in a natural manner, including the times when a suggestible person becomes happy because of the suggestion that God is caring for them)

Yes they can. Simple explanation. The person became depressed because they believed life was hopeless (because of events, they were not reaching the goals they set for themselves, etc.) and then they became hopeful because they were told that all the pain they experienced was part of a greater plan in which they would be given great riches (heaven) as long as they have faith (belief that they will get these riches). Does faith make the person a happier person? Is a faith that allows you to except every bad thing that happens to you as part of what makes you richer spiritually (therefore, every time something bad happens, you are happy, because you are growing in spiritual wealth) anything more than an absolute lie? Is it better to lie to yourself and keep on trucking, or to admit the truth and accept that life sucks unless you are rich, powerful, and attractive? Is it good that you lie to yourself (have faith) and derive some satisfaction from it, although all you really are doing is working for rich, powerful, and attractive people.

Lemme rephrase that for you:

I have truth and I have lies. The truth can only take me so far. Lies can make me believe that I am healed completely.


There is nothing wrong with these lies, although they do end in death, which is ultimately the only thing that can take away your pain.

 

LOL, this is funny... LOVE IT!!

I love the whole post Kharakov, you've managed to put into words what I was having trouble with... but that last line cracked me up.. good job

 

so sad that you have to mock people over something so meaningful to them.