The 'Deplorables' Speech: Five Years Later

Discussion in 'Politics' started by ~Zen~, Aug 31, 2021.

  1. TrudginAcrossTheTundra

    TrudginAcrossTheTundra Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Thanks, and likewise!
  2. TrudginAcrossTheTundra

    TrudginAcrossTheTundra Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    I agree.
    Except that it depends on the tax break.
    Probably should eliminate them all. But, people get tax breaks for developing technology for helping to clean up the environment. And for interest on mortgage payments. And for giving to charities. And for high medical bills.
    So I can see why they were implemented. It's like a payment to help with certain burdens.
  3. TrudginAcrossTheTundra

    TrudginAcrossTheTundra Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    This is fun, but I have responsibilities. I can't take an hour out of each day to niggle out your good points from erroneous and try to persuade you to my side of everything and that conservatism doesn't make people bad.

    I don't buy on to any platform; instead I try to look at the various sides of issues and use analysis to form my own position. Typically that ends up right-leaning on economic issues, and left-leaning on social issues. But not on all issues. So if you're judging people from a left-vs-right perspective, then it's no wonder you would see me as inconsistent.
  4. TrudginAcrossTheTundra

    TrudginAcrossTheTundra Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    I don't condone any unprovoked violence.
    I only condone self-defense.
    I get the news, left and right leaning. I know which side is more violent. But there's assholes and idiots on both sides, just like there's good people on both sides.
  5. TrudginAcrossTheTundra

    TrudginAcrossTheTundra Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Dime tú.
  6. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    I am asking for clarification.
    What forms of taxation do you consider to be theft? I can think of income tax, sales tax, excise tax, payroll tax, property tax, estate tax, capital gains tax, dividend tax, import tax, and gift tax. Which of these do you consider to be illegal and therefore theft, and why?

    I would say that yes you pay some form of taxes. Do you consider that theft?
  7. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    So your point of view is that there is never anyway anyone can ever be granted an equal opportunity to excel or at least participate in anything? In other words if I am only 5' 3" tall I can never be given the opportunity to try out for a pro basketball team and certainly never win a spot on that team?
    Let me understand your view of how schools should be funded. If that is what you are writing about here.
    You are proposing that all monies to go to schools, both taxes and tuition to private schools, be lumped into a general fund.
    In other words if my child attends a public school my school taxes contribute to their education, usually property tax, and that goes into a general fund.
    If my child attends a private school, my school taxes contribute to their education, usually property tax, and the tuition charged by the private school go into the general fund. (But I assume you're eliminating tuition)
    Then accountants divide that amount by the number of students in all schools to get a per capita amount.
    So let's say, for simplicity that we have $100,000 in the fund and 1,000 students in the school system. $100,000 divided by 1,000 equals $100 dollars per student. Then every school gets $100 per student no matter where the school is, or what conditions it must operate under.
    Students can attend any school they like, anywhere served by the fund.
    Whatever school is liked the most gets the most students but every school still only gets the same per capita amount, $100 per student.
    Is this correct?
    If so I see many problems.
    1. Are all schools held to the same criteria as far as discipline, curricula, equality, expulsion limitations, grading, extra curricular activities, facilities, handicap access, special needs programs, etc.? If so, how is this accomplished?
    2. How are different facilities built and maintained in different physical areas with the same amount of money, as different areas have different property values, utilities costs, labor and maintenance costs? A building can be built and maintained much cheaper in the town of Podunk than in the city of Metropolis and you can't pay teachers, administrators, and maintenance workers the same salary in the country as the city as it is much more expensive to live in the city.
    3. When you allow students to go to the school "they like best", what does that mean? The one that grades the easiest, the one that has more playground time, the one with the most lax rules, the one that allows the proselytizing of religion, etc.?
    4. How do these students get to the school they like the best? If the school they like the best is 20 miles away how do they get there?
    5. If a school is in a town the students can walk to school, if it's in the country the school needs to provide school buses along with their maintenance, and bus drivers. Yet they still get the same $100 per student as the school that doesn't have to provide transportation which means they have to cut costs somewhere else and be at a disadvantage.
    6. Same with school lunches and breakfast. Some schools need to subsidize meals as the families that the children come from are not able to provide them with decent meals.
    That's a partial list of the problems I see. Could you please address them?
    Maybe I misunderstood. I assumed by time trial you meant to use time trails as a means to handicap a race so that a Honda 50 would stand a chance agaisnt a 250 Ossa.
    Regardless there is no way a Honda 50 can get through any track faster than an Ossa 250. You could even "muscle" all you want as the Ossa would be so far away from the first second....well I guess you could do something as you were being lapped!:)

    KTM 300. Nice bike I remember them from the 70's, that would eat my old Ossa alive! I gave up dirt bikes around 1974 as I got tired of picking myself up off the ground with blood running down my arm.
    Tishomingo likes this.
  8. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Senior Member

    As a Native American, I can sympathize with the concern about immigration. In retrospect, we should have been pickier about who we let into this country. I'm not a believer in open borders, and I don't think a country has to let itself be engulfed by populations whose cultural differences are difficult to assimilate. But all in all, I think we've benefited tremendously by immigration. While I'm concerned that some immigrants don't have cultural traditions which support democracy, that seems also to be true of the domestic population in red states that are having a cow over the Great Replacement. The Proud boys claim to be supporters of "western chauvinism" and treat Pat Buchanan's The Death of the West as its Bible. This concern about "The Great Replacement" is an American manifestation of a phenomenon that seems to be going on in Europe, as well, in reaction to waves of mainly Muslim immigration. I hope somebody replaces the Proud Boys and their ilk soon.
    We're talking here about the kind of equality that is protected by the Fourteenth Amendment Equal Protection Clause, the Civil Rights Acts and the Rehabilitation Act. Don't you believe in that? Do you think we should provide ramps and reserved parking for the disabled, and equalize opportunities as much as we can? Some of us are naturally born with more brawn and brains than others, and some with no brains and brawn have trust funds and daddies who can get them into Wharton. Trump is an example of a guy of below average native ability who made it cuz he had a rich daddy and no scruples. We don't want to handicap the naturally well-endowed, but don't want people to be handicapped just because of their race, ethnic background, gender, religion, or other characteristic that unnecessarily puts them at a disadvantage. Kapish?

    It depends on what kinds of schools we're talking about. Charter schools are public schools, so they are supposed to accept all students, including those with special needs. But, they have greater ability to teach to the test, and to push out students who pose the most challenging academic and behavior problems. Licensure or certification requriements are quite different. Unlike teachers in traditional public schools, who must be licensed or certified to teach through traditional or alternative programs recognized by the state or district, a majority of states do not require charter school teachers to be licensed. And they don't seem to have demonstrably better long term results, despite their propaganda and what uninformed parents might think. Issues with accountability and funding have contributed to high failure rates for charter schools, with nearly a quarter of them closing due to mismanagement. Competing for taxpayer dollars may simply leave both systems under resourced.

    Private schools are a different ball game, with more latitude to pick and choose who they let in, although those who receive federal support for free breakfast/lunch programs, technology grants, etc, may be subject to some federal requirements under Titles VI and IX of the Civil Rights Acts and Sec. 504 of the Rehabilitation Act. Private schools are expensive, and tend to be authoritarian. You can't really make private schools accessible to all without making them public and limiting their freedom of recruitment.
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
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  9. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Senior Member

    You seem to condone the Proud Boys who are essentially a glorified street gang--not exemplars of decency, and not just concerned with"self defense".
  10. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    Love it! That so reminds me of my two aunts on my father's side who were born in Italy!
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  11. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Senior Member

    Which consistently come down on the side of the authoritarian right. Please don't confuse conservatism with the nativist radicalism that is the essence of Trump support and the groups you defend.
  12. Flagme15

    Flagme15 Members

    This makes no sense. I could shoot all kinds of holes in this reasoning, but why bother.
    scratcho likes this.
  13. Piney

    Piney Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    The Metropolitan Museum of Art held a gala and invited Nicki Minaj who declined to attend stating that she was unvaccinated.

    The Trinidadian-born rapper then cited ( on twitter) an urban legend concerning vaccinations.

    The Biden Admin is reaching out to Minaj to sell her on the benefits of vaccination.

    There you have it , if you are an ordinary Jane Q. Public who may be afraid the vaccine will make you infertile, the White House has a different message for you: Get the shot or get fired. Deploprables. Its not five years later, its all the time.

    If you are a Grammy-winning rapper with millions of social media followers who won’t get the COVID-19 vaccine you get air kisses from the White House.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2021
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  14. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Senior Member

    I see your point. It seems to be a kind of right wing political correctness, like "you can only call me by the pronouns of my choice". Meanwhile, the right wingers show no inhibitions about calling their adversaries every name in the book and then some: Femminazi,, Snowflake, RINO, etc. Nor have they been overly inhibited about the use of violence. Don’t Blame the Left for Political Violence in America: The Problem Lies with the Right - In These Times But labels are important. Labels on prescription bottles warn us of dangerous drugs. Warning signs warn us of deer crossings and washed out bridges. And political labels warn us of dangerous individuals. Would Trudgin' want us to take the same approach to Islamic terrorists or communist insurrectionists? or to murderers, muggers, or rapists? I don't think so. If he would,it's worse than I thought.

    Labels. if applied accurately, give us objective information, regardless of the subjective self-concepts of people being labeled. Of course, they can be misused. "Fascist" has been too readily used by people on the left against the right, and now people on the right against the left. "Godwin's law"or "reduction ad Hitlerum" tells us ("Rule #1) that whoever first uses "Hitler", "Nazi" or "Fascist" in an argumrnent loses But that's because the labels are typically used incorrectly. Used correctly, however, the label can remind us of danger signals when we see things happening that are all too familiar to historians. Mike Godwin, the constituional lawyer who invented the rule, is willing to make an exception for Trump, so long as we know what we're talking about. . In Hi. Hitler, Fairfield Univeristy professor Gavriel Rosenfeld develops this argument.

    Fascism was introduced by Benito Mussolini and perfected by Hitler to describe their, at the time unique, political systems based on nine elements: populism+Nativism+Nationalism+hypermasculinity+Scapegoating+embrace of violence+rejection of democracy+the leadership Principle+Statism. A movement doesn't have to have all of these characterisics to make the Fascist label meaningful, but it should have most of them. Fascism is populist in gearing its messaging to the little guy who feels left out of the distribution of wealth, status and power in society. It is nativist in being against foreign influence and immigration, It is nationalist in stressing national glory and superiority (for Mussolini, restoring the glory of the Roman Empire; for Hitler, fulfilling the destiny of the Aryan Master Race embodied in the Third Reich). It scapegoats out groups (for Mussolini, socialists and communists, who were beaten up by his blackshirts; for Hitler, Jews, gypsies and homosexuals, who were beaten up by his brownshirts). as the source of society's evils It puts it's faith primarily in a Leader instead of policies or institutions (IL Duce, for Mussolini's followers; Der Furher, for Hitler's). And it advocates Statism, in which the government is given totalitarian control over people's lives. In sum, Fascism is demagoguery at its most extreme form. "

    The closest we've come to Fascism in U.S. history is the Trump movement. He is populist in appealing to the white non-college educated males' sense of being left out of the American dream. He is nativist in his emphasis on building a wall against illegal Mexican immigration, rounding them up, and kicking them out, and in "extreme vetting" of Middle Eastern immigrants. He is nationalist in the call to "Make America Great Again. He scapegoats Mexicans and Muslims. And he put himself forward as the only hope for getting our country out of its alleged failed condition. He talked about about doing things to "terrorists" which are unconstitutional, and is confident the military won't say No to him. The beginnings of a police state were implicit in policies of rounding up and deporting millions of undocumented aliens, "extreme vetting" of immigrants from threatening countries, and surveillance of mosques. You can't do those things without massive police involvement, and the predictable resistance would only escalate that. Trump's "Law and Order" speech, given in Milwaukee hot on the heels of rioting over the killing of an African-American by police, echoed the infamous use of the phrase by Hitler. Personalism is the essence of Trumpism, which has become a cult of personality. Trump is a world class demagogue. Nixon used "law and order" as a dogwhistle for suppression African-Americans. Mussolini and Hitler couldn't have timed it better. As Hitler said: "We need law and order. Yes, without law and order our nation cannot survive. Elect us and we shall restore law and order."It’s fair to argue that the xenophobic sentiments of Trump's “America First” resemble the spirit of Nazi fascism — especially considering the term’s fraught origins from that time. Trump’s promotion of violence in rallies and on Twitter parallels the Nazi ethos, as do his hypermasculinity and misogyny. Trump’s delighted denunciation of “fake news” doesn’t sound so different from Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels’ excoriation of the “lügenpresse,” or “lying press.” When Is It Okay To Call Someone A Nazi?
    His brazen, on-going efforts to overturn the results of the election he lost and to retain the presidential office, aided and abetted by he sycophant followers, should cinch the comparison. Danger: Beware of the Fascist!
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2021
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  15. Flagme15

    Flagme15 Members

    People on the right like to bandy around the word Communist, i.e. if you don’t agree with their viewpoint, you must be one. It’s a fear mongering term.
    Here is another example of misidentification.
    Re: Bernie Sanders
    It is so simple—A Social Democrat wants to keep our market-based capitalist economic system but wants to have a lot of federal government social programs such as Social Security and Medicare to help the people. A Socialist wants to abolish capitalism and have a socialist economy. What is so hard to understand about this? They are not the same thing.
    Another example of fear mongering. Unfortunately, Americans are attracted to the sound bite.

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