The 'Deplorables' Speech: Five Years Later

Discussion in 'Politics' started by ~Zen~, Aug 31, 2021.

  1. TrudginAcrossTheTundra

    TrudginAcrossTheTundra Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    "Traditional" is associated with "conservatism", which in turn is associated with political "right wing". The right is concerned with conserving traditional values.

    Again, there's no "level playing field" in the game of life. There's no equal opportunity for a small-built person to play basketball or football. Nor a refrigerator-built person to be a marathon runner. Occupations and earning are dependent on many factors, people are suited to certain roles. Supply, demand, and value-added are factors of one's compensation. Looks, personality, size, intelligence, knowledge, acuity, prowess... Opportunities are dependent upon individual characteristics. I think you know this, but haven't come to terms with it It's nice that you'd want to "fix" it, but you can't. What can be done is to help people develop to their full potential -- that must begin as infants. And suitable instruction throughout upbringing. As such, there's no "one size fits all" schooling approach to maximizing people's opportunities.

    The last thing we want is "equal competition between schools". What we want is different schooling to maximize the different potentials of different people, in order to maximize people's opportunities within their domain and range.

    With the bikes, my course choice for this precludes riding side by side and the competition would involve time trials. We could ride the same course at the same time with a delayed start approach. Maybe we can set up cameras along the way so we can later watch you hefting that old Ossa over and under obstacles. :)
     
  2. TrudginAcrossTheTundra

    TrudginAcrossTheTundra Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    That's a rough road to go down, my friend. And a deceptive division. Do you think the people who beat Andy Ngo to a bloody pulp and sent him to the hospital fighting for his life for documenting a riot ("mostly-peaceful protest by some accounts) consider themselves "anything right wing / conservative"???

    We can't fix a problem without first being honest about it.

    And eye-for-eye translates to civil war.
    Is that what we want? If so then how do we pick sides?
     
  3. TrudginAcrossTheTundra

    TrudginAcrossTheTundra Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Well, you could have your wish if enough people were to fall for this type of "learned and wise" advice.

    Maybe I can watch from the afterlife how painlessly you get used to living under sharia law. Not that I'd delight in your pain itself but in the karmic justice aspect of it.

    I think you're looking at "America" through broken glasses or something. You demonstrate you have no clue how Hispanics fare here. Ni modo. Estás equivocado a cada nivel. Muestras demasiado ignorancia sobre la tema, tal como con muchas otras temas. Es vergonzoso legalmente creo.

    By the way, America is a continent. Not a country. That's probably a little too precise for someone unaware of the contents of the koran and with no insight into the Hispanic community. But, maybe learning will start somewhere.
     
  4. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    So, if I understand you, taxation is theft? Interesting.
    Do you pay any taxes or not?
     
  5. TrudginAcrossTheTundra

    TrudginAcrossTheTundra Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    So, "tolerance, social justice, concern for the less fortunate, open-mindedness"? That's your apple pie right there.

    You can't find anyone to disagree!
    Not a one of those things has an objective value!
    They're all relative concepts!
    Like hot. And cold. Tall, short, big, little, ...
    You can do better.
    I know you can.
     
  6. TrudginAcrossTheTundra

    TrudginAcrossTheTundra Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Either you made an inadequate attempt at understanding or you're practicing to be a CNN opinion piece writer!
     
  7. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    So what are these conservative values?
    Sure, everyone is different. But a level playing field refers to equal opportunity, not an equal physical body, etc..
    That's fine until you start using public funds to fund private schools. (I know you think taxation is robbery)
    So you have abandoned your level playing field and now want a staggered start to be determined after a time trial? Big deal, I can use that approach to pit a child's tricycle agaisnt a top fuel dragster. As far as hefting my old Ossa around, which I wish I still had, I am 70 years old now but when I rode it I pulled it under many a barbed wire fence and rode it over many hills and obstacles. No harder than hefting around a Honda 50.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
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  8. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    It's always interesting talking to you.
    So let's refine my understanding of what you said. Only if we tax the SHIT out of people and then give money to others who have less than those who have more than them...then it's theft?
    Is that right?
    So what amount, in percentages, is a shitload of taxes?
    You are agaisnt any form of welfare, child credits, public education, etc.? Or just direct payments of cash money?
    Regardless, why would it be theft? Please explain that part? Theft is an unlawful taking, taxes are lawful.
     
  9. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    I consider outright (but LEGAL) theft to be huge tax breaks to the super rich and the large corporations, which in many cases means no taxes at all---- which also means that they don't have to pay for infra structure maintenance and upgrades, the military, fire fighting services, public education, the judicial system, NASA, FEMA that helps citizens after major catastrophes , expenditures on government properties and retirement benefits for government employees, including veterans-------on and on.And these slights are legal because Republicans / conservatives WANT them to be legal. It's a circle--and the legislators are a major part of it. But take some taxes to help people feed themselves and their children, help some to catch up by providing college admission help, some to help new citizens get a minor foothold in our society, etc,etc----and you're COMMITTING THEFT!! I don't think so---that is unless you are an Ayn Rand devotee and you believe that a tiny % of people own most everything is just dandy!
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
  10. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

  11. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Senior Member

    There you go again whitewashing the right. People on that side seen to be far more concerned with winning than coming to an understanding.You seem to be calling for unilateral disarmament on the left, while the right purses its attack on our democracy. Witness the attack on the Capitol, the forthcoming rally of deplorables next week to defend the "political prisoners" (i.e., insurrectionists) of the January riot, the insane war on masks and vaccinations during a pandemic, and the Nazi street gang activities of the Proud Boys and other thugs you try to present as exemplars of decency.

    I think Meagain already handled this one, but I'll add my two cents. Are you saying ALL taxation is theft, or just taxation of the rich? Proudhon thought all property was theft; your idea seems just as radical and off base as his, in the other direction. Do you feel the same way about corporate welfare? Corporate Welfare: What Is It and Who Benefits | Fiscal Tiger Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor? Privatizing profits and socializig losses? Farm subsides for agribusiness? "The most expensive means tested welfare program, Medicaid, costs the federal government 30 billion dollars a year or about half of the amount corporations receive each year through assorted tax breaks. S.S.I., the federal program for the disabled, receives 13 billion dollars while American businesses are given 17 billion in direct federal aid." corporate welfare

    As for the Ten Commandments, the term "steal" means to take another's property wrongfully. Taxation isn't stealing.
    Why Taxation Isn’t Theft, in 3 Simple Points
    No it’s not your money: why taxation isn’t theft - Tax Justice Network
    https://www.reddit.com/r/CapitalismVSocialism/comments/pd9bvp/taxation_isnt_theft/
    Taxation isn’t theft, but avoiding taxes is
    Government could not survive without taxation. Does that mean you're an anarchist, knowingly or unknowingly? The U.S. Constitution (Article I, Section 8, Clause 1) clearly gives the federal government to tax and spend for the general welfare. I think that would include the social programs you're talking about. The courts agree with me. So are you against the Constitution? Paying taxes isn't wrongful, as Jesus taught us when He said "render unto Caesar..." https://www.reddit.com/r/CapitalismVSocialism/comments/pd9bvp/taxation_isnt_theft/

    The Bible has extensive passages pertaining to our obligations to the less fortunate. (Lev. 19:9;25:35-36; Proverbs 14:21; 19:17; 21:13;29:7; Psalm 82:3-4; 140:12; Deut. 15:7-8;Isaiah 58:6-10; 61:1; Mat. 25:31-40; Luke 6:17-26; 19-31;1John 3:17-18;James 2:4. So do you think this is only about private charity? Paul says that civil authority is designed to be “God’s servant for your good” (Rom.13:4). The government he presumably included in Romans was the Roman one, and it was famous for its bread and circuses, as well as its taxes. Protestant Reformers Martin Luther and John Calvin found in Psalm 72 a basis for their belief that a “righteous” government helps the poor.

    Private charity is great, but throughout history it's never been enough. The rich, on the whole, have been stingy about their largess. Income inequality has been rapidly growing in our society.
    Trends in U.S. income and wealth inequality
    The True Cause of Income Inequality in America
    • the top 1% earns forty times more than the bottom 90%. In America today, the gap between the top 1% income and the bottom 90% income is widening daily.
    • The top 0.1% of income earners own as much wealth as the bottom 90%.
    Let's hope the rich aren't numbered with the goats instead of the sheep on judgment day. Jesus told us it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. We have a few multi-billionaires like Gates and Buffet, who give part of their fortunes to worthy causes, but it's only a small fraction of their total wealth. Without those faceless bureaucrats, lots of old folks would be without their social security checks, and our society would be more miserable than it is.

    You're pretty prodigious yourself!
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
  12. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Senior Member

    Political scientist Theodore Lowi (1972) distinguished three kinds of governmental policies: distributive, constituent, regulatory, and redistributive. .Distributive policies involving dissemination of services and benefits through contracts, grants, construction contracts, road and bridge, building, the nineteenth century land policies, etc. aren't usually that controversial. When the hurricane blows their town down, Republicans usually don't complain that the government is "stealing" somebody else's money to help them out. Constituent policies, involving such matters as reapportionment of legislative districts or setting up new legislative districts, are likewise not ordinarily seen as theft. More controversy comes with regulatory policies: labor laws, food and drug, environmental regulation, securities and exchange regulation, etc. Controversy typically centers on what should be regulated and the degree of regulation, but only anarchists or extreme libertarians would argue that the government is "stealing" their business by telling them they can't pollute the air or water,etc Only with redistributive policies could somewhat plausible arguments of "theft" be made. Welfare, progressive income tax and social security--involving transfer of money from one group to another, are examples.

    But I think that even where redistributive policies are concerned, such arguments are wrongheaded. From a utilitarian standpoint, government policy must be consistent with the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people in the long run. I think it would be inconsistent with that principle to have a sizeable underclass of disadvantaged citizens. It leads to social unrest and other social problems, including the waste of productive resources. I favor the modification of utilitarianism by "contractarian" considerations along lines suggested by John Rawls and William Runciman. Rawls, in A Theory of Justice (1971) argues that justice is essentially "fairness", and that we can get at what fairness is by resorting to a device from seventeenth century social contract theory: what would people agree to if they were coming together in a "state of nature" to work out the ground rules of a new society in which they had no idea what position they would occupy in the social hierarchy. He concludes, they would agree on the "greatest equal liberty for all individuals (i.e., equality of opportunity) and that any inequalities should work to the advantage of the least advantaged individual. W.G. Runciman in Relative Deprivation and Social Justice carries this a bit farther in arguing that no one in such a state of primordial ignorance would pick a system in which they would risk abject poverty and starvation. So there must be some safety net. We can debate what that is. It should be high enough to protect the vulnerable from extinction, but not so high that we discourage hard work and innovation. The Scandanivian countries set it very high, and are not afraid of high taxes to get there. They are also prosperous ,and according to opinion polls like the UN's World Happiness Report ,the happiest people in the world.
    World Happiness Report 2021
    Scandinavians Are the Happiest People in the World
    What Americans Can Learn From Scandinavians, the Happiest People in the World
    Bernie would like to attribute this to "Socialism", but the Scandanavians aren't exactly socialist.
    https://fee.org/articles/the-myth-of-scandinavian-socialism/
    There is relatively little government ownership of the means of production and distribution, although there is extensive regulation. What they have is a "mixed economy" and a welfare state.

    So if happiness is our ultimate goal, as Aristotle thought it was, we might take our cues from the Scandanavian playbook. Taxation for such ends is neither "stealing" nor "theft" (wrongful taking of another's property).. Promotion of fair policies that promote the greatest happiness for the greatest number in the long run and make sure the least advantaged receive a decent minimum is not wrongful, but rather, rightful. Misusing the Bible for "proof texts" is no different from the similar practices of slave owners to justify their "property rights".
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
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  13. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Senior Member

    Yeah, all values are, to some extent "relative", but that doesn't mean they have no value. Do you think values are meaningless? Obviously not, since you put forward a string of them that're supposed to characterize "decent" people and be right wing. Your sudden burst of relativism is uncharacteristic of you, and suggests a desperate resort to expediency. Your response is vacuous and misses the point. Your original post cherry picked some things that you value, left out other things many of us consider important, and managed to denigrate gays and nonbelievers in the process. And it's not true that I can't find anyone to disagree with mine. In fact I've even debated one of them on this forum: social justice, which the person debating me thought was unbiblical. From your posts it can safely be said you don't think much of it, absolute or relative. Besides, you miss the point. Your string of "right wing" values is so over-the -top idealized, gushy, and selective that it readily brings to mind items on F-scale tests dealing with "conventionalism'--rigid, blind adherence to conventional values. Once again, who was married to Betty Grable?
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
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  14. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Senior Member

    Tell it to the Proud Boys.
    Proud Boys' Violence: A Pattern | Right Wing Watch
    This Week in Fascism #117: Violence Explodes as Proud Boys Unite with Far-Right Churches and Anti-Vaxxers
    Why are the Proud Boys so violent? Ask Gavin McInnes
    Conspiracy Charges Bring Proud Boys' History Of Violence Into Spotlight
    Harrowing Videos Capture Proud Boys' Violence at Anti-Vaxx Rally in Downtown Los Angeles: Reports
    Latest Violence Showcases Proud Boys’ Toxic Mix of Politics and Bigotry
    Waddabout the poor capitol police who were beaten with American flags and other assorted objects at the January 6 right wing insurrection.

    As for Andy Ngo, too bad about his injuries, but he was bit not an innocent victim but a far-right provocateur who has doxxed antifa members and provoked them so that he could broadcast the result. In this case, he probably got more than he expected. Your one-sided plea for peace. love and understanding by the left will fall on deaf ears so long as you condone violence on the right.
     
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  15. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Senior Member

    Wow! He speaks Spanish! But you said nothing except your usual vacous insults. You don't say why you disagree with Meagain. You just say he's "wrong at every level", and "shows too much ignorance on the subject, as with many subjects". And you think this is "legally embarrassing" (whatever that means). Does putting it in Spanish show your authority on immigration matters or Hispanics? I think Meagain knows America is not a country. In fact, it's not even a continent. North and South America are. But in common parlance, and in context, as in "America the beautiful", I think we knew what Meagain was saying. Making an issue of it seems like an act of desperation.
     
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  16. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Annnnd , the comeback will likely be: Whuuut? You have no clue. ad infinitum.
     
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  17. Flagme15

    Flagme15 Members

    upload_2021-9-15_12-54-19.jpeg
     
  18. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Oh man---that sign -Get a brain! Morans----one of my all time favorites!!:D
     
  19. TrudginAcrossTheTundra

    TrudginAcrossTheTundra Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Are you asking my opinion, or a statement of fact?
    Because it's easy to consider some forms of taxation for some purposes, indeed theft.
    Yet there's other cases where taxation provides funding for things which can advantage any of us.
    And what's a fair approach to assessing how much to tax and for what? We do income at varying rates, possessions at fixed rates, and purchases at fixed rates.
    And then there's all kinds of hidden taxes. Like licenses, permits, requirements, regulations, and etc which we typically don't consider when referencing taxation.

    What does your gut tell you, do I pay any taxes?
     
  20. TrudginAcrossTheTundra

    TrudginAcrossTheTundra Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    If I don't have an equal physical body, then I don't have equal opportunity.

    Funding schools is the whole basis of improving education! The way it works is the accountants divide the budget among the number of students to determine a "per pupil" amount, then that amount is transferred to whatever school the parents and pupil decide to attend. The more a school is liked, the bigger it grows and the more it's funded. By public funds - so regardless of the "ownership" of the school, it's essentially a public school.

    Time trials are as close to a "level playing field" as you can get. Unless you consider muscling each other out of the way on single track trails as part of the competition. But if all you're competing for is who can get through the course faster then time trials is the thing.

    Yeah, the old bikes... Well they're not as good as the new ones by any stretch but man would they be cool to still have!

    My trail bike now is a KTM 300XC-W.
     

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