The 'Deplorables' Speech: Five Years Later

Discussion in 'Politics' started by ~Zen~, Aug 31, 2021.

  1. hotwater

    hotwater Senior Member

    He's probably an FBI informant
  2. newo

    newo Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    I imagine the FBI has spell-check and knows how to use it.
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  3. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Senior Member

    The images above illustrate another problem with the Trump base: machismo. The testosterone overload in the crowd is palpable. Trump, bone spurs and all, has succeded in weaponizing hypermasculinity. .Trump Has Weaponized Masculinity As President. Here's Why It Matters The Access Hollywood tape didn't hurt him at all in showing his street creds as a macho womanizer. He mocked Biden for wearing a mask. Appearing tough, insensitive, unemotional, and decisive is what guys do. Real men don't eat quiche or wear face masks! Toughness and aggressiveness are the hallmarks, and sensitivity and deep thoughts are definitely out. That's why Neo-nazism is on the rise. Those Nazis were so cool, goose stepping around in those jackboots and Stahlhelm hats, pushing people around. How tough and aggressive is that! Same goes with Confederates. Badass!(Even though both were losers, like Trumo, for that matter).

    Proud Boys are a case in point. Gavin McInnes took that bunch of milennial male misfits out of their mom's basements and taught them to have sex with women instead of their hands. And look at them now! Kickin ass in the streets of Portland and stormin' the Capitol! "Evidence suggests that fragile masculinity leads to support for aggressive policies and for Republican politicians." The political significance of fragile masculinity - ScienceDirect Those Demo snowflakes are such wusses!

    Last edited: Sep 9, 2021
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  4. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

  5. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Senior Member

    The (what shall we call them? Concerned citizens? Scumbags?) are descending on the Capitol again to rally in support of the "political prisoners" in jail because of the last insurrection and the martyred "heroine" Ashli Babbitt who met her demise trying to climb through the window of a door where the glass was broken out. She may become the Horst Wessel of the American Neo-Nazi movement. Die Fahne hoch!
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  6. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Senior Member

    "Come, let us reason together."" "Why can't everybody get along?" Sounds reasonable, doesn't it? But what if you think somebody is trying to take over your country and do you and your fellow Americans serious harm ? What if some of them say you're a pedophilic, baby eating Satanist? What if there's good reason to believe manners and politeness won't work with such people? What if they show up at your nation's Capitol, erect a gallows, smash doors and windows and beat up Capitol police officers, several of whom die during the incident. Right -wing extremists have bombed abortion clinics: bombed the Murrah building in my home state, killing 168 people; right-wing anti-maskers have attacked people wearing masks in airports;Anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers now present a real threat of violence ; and under Trump, numerous racist killings and a tiki torch parade by thugs chanting "Jews will not replace us, in which a woman was deliberately run over by a car. Jason Kessler, who organized the 2017 white nationalist Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Va.,was a Proud Boy. In New York City, multiple members of the Proud Boys faced criminal charges for attacking protesters. The judge said: "I know enough about history to know what happened in Europe in the '30s when political street brawls were allowed to go ahead without any type of check from the criminal justice system." Over 20 Proud Boys are facing charges in the Capitol insurrection.
    Proud Boys violence in Portland prompts Oregon Democrat to seek action from DOJ
    Proud Boys' Violence: A Pattern | Right Wing Watch
    Harrowing Videos Capture Proud Boys' Violence at Anti-Vaxx Rally in Downtown Los Angeles: Reports

    Before she was elected to Congress, MTG showed her petty nature by following and harassing a school boy, Parkland school shooting survivor David Hogg, and she since became notorious for claiming that Jews started forest fires with lasers from outer space and that mask requirements were comparable to the Holocaust. Her colleague, Madison Cawthorn, warned there will be "bloodshed" if the "rigged" electoral system suffers from fraud in the future--presumably not referring to the rigging going on by Retrumplicans in their recent changes to the voting laws.

    Proud Boy grupenfueher Joe Biggs, formerly a correspondent for Alex Jones InfoWars, said in a 2020 interview: "I'm going to talk s***," Biggs told an interviewer in 2020. "Especially to the people I f***ing hate, that I despise. And yes, I do hate, and hate is a strong word, but that's a good word to use for those people." He said on a Proud Boys show called WARBOYS "They're evil scum, and they all deserve to die a traitor's death." My response is: same to you, you evil bastard!

    But Trudgin' would like us to be nice to the Proud Boys, not to judge them. Very Christian in everyday relations. But as a Christian, while I admire Jesus admonition to "turn the other cheek" when people wrong me, I don't feel similarly compelled to turn my neighbor's cheek when somebody is assaulting him, nor turn a blind eye to fascist bully boys who are threatening American democracy. Trudgin' is asking us to play by Marquis of Queensberry rules while his side gets to bite, gauge and kick below the belt. Do you really think anybody is going to fall for that? Anyhow, this is an opinion forum, and within the bounds set up by the moderators, we are free to express our sentiments in appropriate language. The Fairness Doctrine used to apply only to broadcasters, and that went out the window in the 1980s. Does anybody believe Fox's slogan that they're "fair and balanced"? The Supreme Court upheld the right of a protestor to wear "Fuck the Draft" on his jacket, because 'Darn the Draft wouldn't quit convey his feelings.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2021
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  7. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Excellent as usual Tishomingo!:)-------------------------------------and my reaction to anything right wing / conservative--:mad:. Turn the other cheek doesn't work with those types---maybe an eye for an eye will someday HAVE to be the credo with such unreasonable people.
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  8. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Senior Member

    The summer of love was way before my time, but from what I've read about it (the original one in '67) it was when the nation discovered hippies and flocked to Haight-Ashberry in San Francisco to experience them up close. After awhile, the scene degenerated cuz of drugs and bad elements who moved in, and the real hippies in the know moved out. So that's supposed to be mob rule that I'm defending? I don't keep up with the autonomous zones, which seem to be a Portland thing for anarchists. Yeah. I'll speak out against that. Those people are nuts, as are all the right wingers like the Proud Boys who are part of the on-going Portland mob rule scene.

    If I understand what you're saying, you claim not to have seen right wing characterizations of left-wing misbehavior. If you mean from us, the "equal time" rule ordinarily applies to broadcasters, not to us folks who are expressing opinions on HF.
    If you mean by right wingers, surely you watch Fox. Republicans have been characterizing those folks for decades. As others have mentioned, you seem to be referring to the opportunists who use the occasion of a demonstration to loot, burn and deface. Those people are pond scum, but I doubt they're aware or sensitive to any names we might call them. Their ranks include the agents provocateurs seeking to discredit the protests, like Umbrella Man in Minneapolis, linked by police to a white supremacist group. Minneapolis police identify 'Umbrella Man' who helped incite George Floyd riots, warrant says - CNN
    Minneapolis Police Link ‘Umbrella Man’ to White Supremacy Group (Published 2020)
    We could say that people shouldn't exercise their constitutional right to protest under the First Amendment, so that no such opportunists could have cover. Or we could say it's collateral damage from democracy.

    Oh, I was paying attention. The George Floyd killing was the latest in a string of such incidents that led to the formation of Black Lives Matter, a name chosen to remind us that African-Americans are people, too. (The retort "All Lives Matter" doesn't address the fact that Blacks are disproportionately the victims. The retort that they're disproportionately criminals is one I'll address in a subsequent post on authoritarian values.) Anyhow, most of the the world seems to have agreed with, and participated in, the protests. Those mayors were sensible in judging that repression wouldn't be an effective response of people who had had enough. As for "defunding the police", that unfortunate slogan seems to have come and gone with the cooling of passions.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
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  9. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    I seem to recall that this was a a standard practice of those who opposed Liberal ideas back in the Vietnam or Summer of Love era.
    Nixon once described Liberal anti war demonstrators as," “a wild orgasm of anarchists sweeping across the country like a prairie fire.”
    With operation CHAOS, not to mention MERRIMAC, the CIA illegally infiltrated Liberal universities across the country leading eventually to the CIA becoming involved in the Watergate break in, which was conducted against the "Liberal" Democratic party.

    The The FBI also had a program called COINTELPRO whose aim was to infiltrate and disrupt any organization they didn't like:
    So I don't see any reason to not suspect that any rioting going on, especially at a Liberal rally during the Trump era may involve some degree of right wing agents provocateurs.
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  10. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

  11. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Senior Member

    C'mon man. I don't see how you can write such crap and keep a straight face (or do you?) These are the Proud Boys we're talking about-not the Boy Scouts, the Promise Keepers, or the Disciples of Christ family men religious retreat. The Proud Boys have been called"one of the most dangerous organizations in the Western world."Take the Redpill: Understanding the Allure of Conspiratorial Thinking among Proud Boys - Georgetown Journal of International Affairs Lately they've turned their efforts into obstructing vaccination efforts for Covid-19, by attacking journalists and people trying to promote the vaccinations. Unvaccinated terror: Proud Boys push the anti-vaccination movement into a violent threat
    Common decency, my ass.
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2021
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  12. I think that there's more harm than just organized elements like the Proud Boys though.

    There's a swath of America who is fooled - perhaps they've fallen victim to the disinformation campaign... but that is speculation.

    I refer to those with the flag on their truck and slogans in their window who claim no affiliation to anything, and wouldn't know true patriotism or anything remotely related to it if it bit their ass.

    My meaning: It seems to fuel the flames and sentiment of exclusion and xenophobia to display and embrace this sort of loose mock-patriotism.

    It basically has a no-holds-barred version of so-called "American Freedom" as its would-be backbone...

    It wants us to distrust immigrants, to reject refugees, and to be cold to anyone who we deem doesn't belong.

    I don't agree.

    I think that we should embrace new ideas! Take on the challenge of accepting completely foreign elements into America - Lord knows it isn't easy, and is confusing at first but don't they need us?

    I see an America that fears Islam - we were conditioned to distrust an entire religion!

    I see an America that considers Mexican migrants and Spanish-speaking Hispanics from everywhere - be it Honduras or Nicaragua or Bolivia, as complete outsiders and second-class citizens! Is that fair or righteous? Some would have you believe so, but no. It's not.

    It's a little like talking with someone who speaks with an accent - it just takes getting used to, but is more or less painless once you've accepted the main idea.
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  13. newo

    newo Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Is it petty to point out they call themselves the Proud Boys and not the Proud Men? Just a thought.
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  14. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Senior Member

    You left out motherhood and apple pie, but the ones you list are certainly idealized conventional conservative values, in preaching if not always in practice, and ones which I try to live up to. When I read statements like these, though, I can hear in my mind Archie Bunker at the piano singing:"Guys like me we had it made, those were the Daaaaayz" It's interesting what's not on the list: tolerance, social justice, concern for the less fortunate, open-mindedness. It's also noteworthy that your list includes "a male and female marrying under God." Homophobic, are we? and in the USA, are non-believers to be downgraded? I must confess, I had the same feeling about them until I started attending dinners with a group of freethinkers, got to know them and their values and how they raised their kids, and concluded they were good people.

    Conventionalism is actually a major component of the F (Fascism)-scale (Adorno et al,1950), the RWA (Right Wing Authoritarianism) scale (Altmeyer, 1981), and the ASC s(Agression-Submission-Conventionalism) scale (Dunwoody and Funke (2016) which psychologists use to measure authoritarianism, a syndrome of personality traits associated with authoritariansim, based on the experience of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. The good German burghers were suckers for Hitler's appeals to protecting traditional values. "He often harked back to the 19th century, when...German society was relatively untroubled by disruptive influences like socialism, liberalism, democracy and women’s rights. Your go-around with Meagain over the impossibility of a level playing field because of natural inequality and hierarchy gets another dimension of authoritarianism. the distinction between Ubermensch and Untermesch.

    I'm not saying you're authoritarian, but other Trump supporters seem to have that tendency.
    John W. Dean and Bob Altemeyer, Authoritarian Nightmare » Melville House Books
    The One Weird Trait That Predicts Whether You’re a Trump Supporter
    Donald Trump Supporters Display 'Authoritarian Personality,' Psychologists Say
    Donald Trump and Authoritarian Followers – The Authoritarians
    For those of authoritarian mindset, Trump's performance hasn't disappointed.
    Authoritarianism in 2020: Checking the checklist

    Anybody familiar with the history of the rise of Fascism before World War II might find it difficult to get too sentimetal about groups like the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers, the Boogaloo Boys and the Oath Keepers, who resemble ever so much the militias that were active in bringing Hitler and Mussolini to power.
    Fascist paramilitary - Wikipedia
    Warfare on the Public Square: The Danger of Armed Militias - Renew Democracy Initiative
    ‎Paramilitary Organizations in Germany from 1871-1945: Stormtroopers, Freikorps, Treaty of Versailles, Landesjaegerkorps, Nazis, Third Riech, Hitler Youth, Waffen SS, Himmler, Holocaust

    One parting question for you: Who was married to Betty Grable?

    Last edited: Sep 12, 2021
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  15. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Senior Member

    What a remarkable statement! You're suggesting that Hillary's speech, which fell flat even with most Democrats, triggered "these groups" to come out in a noticeable public manner. It's not clear exactly what "these groups" are, but if you're talking about the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers, Black Lives Matter, and Antifa, those groups were noticeably "out" before Hillary used the term "deplorables". Hilary gave her "deplorables" speech on September 9, 2016, when the election was little more than a couple of months away. Donald Trump had already been nominated as his party's candidate and had called Hillary and his other opponents every name in the book and then some. He had been leading his rallies of "upstanding citizens" in chants of "lock her up"--that being a reference to her supposed criminality for using a private server for her government e-mails, just as Trump's cronies and family members had been doing. Trump launched what became the most divisive political campaign in U.S. postwar history by targeting Mexicans and Muslims.

    The Oath Keepers, one of the largest right wing militia groups, was founded in 2009 by a former U.S. paratrooper and Republican staffer for Ron Paul. Although hatred of "Hitlery" seems to be an important unifying theme, the hatred developed one presidential election earlier. Antifa grew out of Anti-Racist Action, which formed in the 1980s to counteract the Klan and neo-Nazis who were recruiting at rock concerts. Mark Bray, Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook. Black Lives Matter goes back to 2013, after the acquittal of George Zimmerman in the shooting of Rayvon Martin. Proud Boys held its first meeting in New York City shortly before Hillary's speech in September of 2016. As a right wing "western chauvinist" group, it would naturally be pro-Trump and anti-Hillary, but it would be impossible to say that her "deplorables" speech had anything to do with it.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
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  16. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    Facts again?
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  17. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Senior Member

    Any attempt to determine the causes of the present divisiveness in American politics is bound to be impressionistic. This is my take on the top dozen. I consider several of these items to be good but divisive. I welcome comments, corrections and changes. I think they had a lot more to do with our polarization than Hillary's speech did,

    1. The Civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam War in the sixties led to new forms of political mobilization and more confrontational politics. The Democratic National Convention of 1968 in Chicago, with demonstrations and a "police riot" was a dramatic marker of this development.
    2. Executive Order 11246 Affirmative Action in 1965. introduced in an effort to "level the playing field" and compensate for past discrimination. Some white males perceived this as "reverse discrimination".
    3. The Immigration Act of 1965 abolished the National Origins formula, thereby letting in more non-white ad non-Northwestern European origin immigrants.This aroused fears of "Great Replacement".
    4. Nixon's Southern Strategy and the Democrats' move toward racial inclusion in the early 70s resulted in party realignment, with southern Democrats shifting to Republican and the parties becoming more ideologically "pure"--and uncompromising.
    5.Tightening of Public Lands Regulations Under the Federal Lands Policy and Management Act of 1976 Spurred the Sagebrush Rebellion.
    6. Publication of The Turner Diaries by Neo-Nazi Andrew Mac Donald (AKA William Luther Pierce) in 1978 depicts coming race war, overthrow of federal government, and elimination of Jews, liberals and non-whites. Becomes "Bible" for Neo-Nazis.
    7. Regulatory changes in broadcasting during the Reagan Administration in the late1980s eliminated the requirement of fair and balanced programming. The FCC eliminated the Fairness Doctrine in 1987 and removed the rule that implemented it from the Federal Register in August 2011. This led to the rise of such one-sided news outlets as conservative talk radio, CNN, FOX News, and MSNBC,allowed broadcasting to be replaced by "narrow casting", tailoring the news to the individual consumer.
    8. Changes in Communications Technology facilitated narrow casting, the ability of people to choose their own news ; Cable Act of 1984 gradually deregulated cable;Satellite Home Viewer Improvement Act of 1999; Internet became available to public. Information consumers have wider opportunity for competing news sources, but greater ability to choose what news to be exposed to.
    9. Passage of NAFTA in 1994 was welcomed by multinationals but feared by protectionist local industries and labor.
    10. Election of first African-American President in 2009 aroused racist fears.
    11. Passage of the Affordable Care Act gave Right Wing a target for attack.
    12. Gazillionaire Koch Brothers and Mercers formed Astroturf groups to attack Obmacare and foster "Alt Right" Movement. Koch Brothers bankrolled the Tea Party; Mercers bankrolled Breitbart and the Alt-Right Movement.
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
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  18. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Senior Member

    I need to add some court cases to my list: Roe v. Wade (1973), surely the most divisive Supreme Court decision in U.S. history, although I agree with it; and District of Columbia v. Heller (2008)/McDonald v. City of Chicago (2010), upholding a personal right of individuals to own firearms, which may be second to Roe in divisiveness. And we mustn't forget Citizens United v. FEC (2010) which gave dark money free reign in our elections under the guise of free speech. We can discuss those if you want to.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
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  19. newo

    newo Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Anyway we've got some deplorables descending on Washington DC this Saturday. Hope it turns out to be a bust like Mike Lindell's last rally. Still some of them might show up armed this time.
  20. TrudginAcrossTheTundra

    TrudginAcrossTheTundra Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    We should recognize that we tend to have more in common with the people we denigrate for having an opposing view on a matter than we do differences. It's a challenge though when the people involved are more concerned about winning than coming to an understanding.

    A key difference the proponents of taxing the shit out of people who have more than they do to give to others who have less is that they don't recognize that doing so amounts to theft. We're commanded not to steal, and that's not benevolent giving. The biblical precept is aimed at individuals, and is instructing them to give voluntarily to those in need. Maybe you've thought about the huge difference between giving of your own accord and being forcibly robbed for the purported benefit of others. Not to mention the difference the receiver experiences between receiving gifts from individuals versus from some nameless, faceless bureaucracy which has mandated that they deserve it.

    You're a prodigious writer and it's hard for me to take the time necessary to keep up. Apologies, but that's reality.

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