The Book, On the Taboo Against Knowing Who you Are

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by MeAgain, Aug 18, 2021.

  1. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

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    As whose emotions change? You say my? When I change emotional states, do I become non=me? When we freeze a glass of water, does it cease to be H2O?
    Again, classic reductionism. We are "nothing but" this or that. My wife is nothing but a bunch of waves and particles, but I can pick her out in a crowd and relate to her in ways I don't with other bunches of waves and particles. An interesting thing about QM is that despite all the chaos going on at the subatomic level, things are remarkably stable and predictable statistically up here.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2021
  2. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    As your emotions change due to my auditory, visual or pheromone output, a change in your emotion will trigger a response by your nervous system. Emotions and Your Nervous System
    We were talking about how we are connected. I contended that even if we assume there is no physical connection between us there are other ways we are connected. I wasn't addressing whether those connections have any influence of your emotional state in regards to your interpretation of your ego.

    If reductionism results in unity of the whole and not separate irreducible particles I would agree.

    It seems there are different types of reductionism, for one:
     
  3. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

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    Yes, the butterfly effect, six million degrees of separation, and all that. And I might be related to you through Genghis Khan, too. I understand he was pretty active back in the day. But such influences and connections seem relatively remote, by comparison with the immediate realities of my consciousness and the people I interact with on a daily basis. I happen to agree with some of the basic concepts of Buddhism. I think upādāna (attachments) and taṇhā (grasping) are the roots of human suffering, which I think was the point of the Adam and Eve story in Genesis. And anityaya (anica) (impermanence) and dukkha (suffering) are also part of the human condition." No self" can be useful as a corrective to the "me, me, me" of American culture. But the doctrinal absolutism that I detect in Watts' presentation of it is bothersome.

    I find all the elaborate rationcinations about the nature of physical reality in the context of Buddhism puzzling. What about the parable of the poisoned arrow? Cūḷamālukya Sutta. Speculation about metaphysical absolutes is a distraction from the immediate practicalities of dealing with dukkha. It is said that the Buddha was a practical man, not concerned with metaphysical matters, but focused instead on the problem of what to do about suffering. What the Buddha Did NOT Teach | Wanderings Of course, the Buddha thought that suffering was the result of attachments which were a result of ego, so its important to get the ego under control, which is no easy task. Denying it is one approach. Some Buddhists (admittedly a minority) don't go to the extreme of denying "self" as completely as Watts seems to do.

    "No self" is a translation of the Pali term Anatta, which in Sanskrit is Anatman--"not Atman". What anatta was originally rejecting was the Atman, a Hindu concept denoting an unchanging, permanent "true self", free of ego and defiling kieshas (impurities) and serving as the "observing" or "witness" consciousness to the Brahman, with which it will ultimately discover it is one. A little different from what we westerners have in mind by "self". At the time the Buddha began his ministry, the Vedantic tradition was under attack from Charvaka the radical materialist/hedonist school which taught there was no atman, no samasara, no reincarnation, and no karma. So the Buddha, in his characteristic way, struck a middle path between the two by accepting all except atman. Materialism of the Charvaka and rationalism of the Buddha This doesn't mean he explicitly rejected atman either. In fact, the Cula-Malinkovada sutta indicates that he may not have. When he was asked point-blank if there is or isn’t a self, he declined to answer (Samyutta Nikaya 44.10). His treatment of the topic in the Anattalakkhana Sutta is simply to challenge the five skanhas. which are commonly thought to be attributes of self.

    Some scholars think "no self" was absent or muted in the earliest Buddhist writings and that hardening of the doctrine was a later "talmudic' development.
    https://www.amazon.com/Non-Self-Early-Buddhism-Joaquin-Pérez-Remon/dp/9027979871
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335229447_The_Doctrine_of_Not-self_anatta_in_Early_Buddhism Collins tells us that while the monks are staunch believers in "no self", not so much the Buddhist laity. Selfless Persons In the Mahayana, Tibetan and Zen traditions, the Tathagatagarbha Sutras teach that all beings have the core of Buddha Nature or "true self" (satya-atman) within them. The Tathagatagarbha Sutra - The Buddha on Buddha Nature The Buddha Within: Tathagatagarbha Doctrine according to the Shentong Interpretation of the Ratnagotravibhaga - Buddha-Nature Likewise, the Theravada Dhammakaya/Forest traditions of southeast Asia are particularly vocal in challenging the non-self concept in favor of "true self". This seems to get us very close to the Atman.
    Atman in Buddhism

    Nirvana in Buddhism

    Others think that the concept is best understood as a strategy for attacking attachments, rather than fundamental truth to be taken literally. "When the Buddha taught not-self (anatta) — as opposed to no self — he was recommending... a way of cutting through the mind’s tendency to cling to things by claiming them as “me” or “mine.” 7 Things the Buddha Never Said That I can accept. "Let me be clear that this idea isn’t saying we don’t exist. If we walked into a wall, our bodies would bump against it and we’d feel pain. Yes we exist! Instead, what it’s really saying is that we’re constantly changing beings, always in flux. We’re not permanent, fixed entities. We’re more like rivers. If you stood on a bank and watched a river, the water molecules passing by now would be different from what passed by a moment ago. So then how can we say it’s the same river?" If there is no self, then who’s sitting here? - Wildmind. Heraclitus said much the same thing in the 6th century B.C.E. Is the Nile the same river Cleopatra pissed in, and is the Mississippi the same waterway Mark Twain made a career of writing about? Much more polluted I'd imagine, but the location and channels are pretty much the same. Sometimes rivers change course, but there is continuity in the way they do it. I say it is the same river (and person) because there are continuity and similarities, as well as differences--in the case of humans, the most important of which is an integrated organism controlled by a brain with continuous memories. Have I changed much since I was a kid? You bet. I've changed profoundly. As a Christian, I feel "born again" after a conversion experience. And my outlook and priorities are certainly different after college, marriage, parenthood, and steady employment than before. That's undeniable, and if that's all that "no self" means, who could argue? But literal acceptance of "no self" gets into conceptual problems of apparent logical contradiction with other Buddhist doctrines like reincarnation and karma. If there is no self, what is being reborn, and what is the sense of attributing its condition to karma. I know that Buddhist apologists can provide answers to these, but they remind me ever so much of the mental hijinks of Christian apologetics websites. I wonder if the "no self" concept isn't another one of those ideals that people claim to believe but really don't show it in their everyday practice--like "turning the other cheek" and the "lilies of the field" for Christians.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2021
  4. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    I don't want to wander to far from the book so I'll comment briefly.
    I really don't know what a Buddhist apologist would be. I suppose there are those who claim to adhere to Buddhist ideas or scriptures and then feel they have to defend something contained in them, but Buddhism isn't the type of "religion" if you want to call it that, that has dogmatic statements that need to be defended. I would think any "defenses" of certain Buddhist ideals are really explanations. Saying that, it's a big world and all sorts of people can claim to be Buddhists.
     
  5. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Getting back to the book.
    The sense of being a separate ego can not be eliminated by trying to forget the feeling itself or by an act of willpower. If we try.....
    Any such effort will merely result in a game of one-upmanship as in "I have less ego than you." Then we get into "I have less one-upmanship than you do and "I realize that any effort is one-upmanship", and so on.
    Eventually any such internal thinking will result in the realization that I can only be ego less if someone else has an ego. I can only win if someone else loses.
     
  6. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    So how to get over the feeling of being a lone, independent, separate ego?
    But the problem then becomes that once you embark on any of these methods you become part of an "in" group defined by those who are outside of that group effort. This is true of all secular organizations and religions alike. And then the arguments and quarrels begin as to who has the best method, religion, god, or even who is less exclusive than us?
    You or your group are defined by what you or your group is not. The more you question what your group is, the more you discover what it is not. The more you question who you are, the more you discover who you are not. The more you argue for a separate self or ego, the more you must define how it is separate and from what.
     
  7. Tishomingo

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    Certainly, Buddhism has been no exception--witness the external dispute with Hinduism and the internal disputes leading to the Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana divisions. .So how to get over the feeling of being a lone, independent, separate ego?
    Another approach might be to accept this as the human condition, get over yourself, and get on with your life. (I'm using "your" generically--nothing personal). After three marriages, an adulterous mistress, alcoholism, and a bad smoking habit, Watts didn't seem to have been close to nirvana. Should we rely on him to get us there?
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2021
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  8. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    Harmony never acts nor reasons, and whenever harmony is lost, balance will be restored. Beauty and ugliness define one another, because harmony is impossible without a sense of humor, which academics like Watts lack.
     
  9. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Lol! Oh I agree about Buddhism.

    Yeah, Watts lived life to the fullest and he was a rebel. Even many Buddhists didn't like many of his ideas, such as his claim that Zazen wasn't needed. I don't think he was overly concerned with personal morals, especially many of those in play when he was alive as morals get intro the realm of right and wrong. In addition to multiple marriages, alcoholism, and a bad smoking habit he also criticized religion, took LSD, mescaline, smoked marijuana was agaisn't vegetarianism
    And he hung out with homosexuals and various so called degenerates.
    Here's an interesting interview with his daughter, Anne from 2013, if you want to put in the time:


     
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  10. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    He was Zen, which is what Asians call a "rootless religion" that isn't even popular in its country of origin, China. The Japanese adapted Chuang Taoism to their own rather melodramatic culture, and academics ate it up. Buddhism is much the same, a rootless religion, that adapts to whatever culture it encounters, just like academics. To comprehend the mysterious ways of the rootless comedian, requires examining the Big Picture, sharing your words, and playing nice.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2021
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  11. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    You are in a trap, you are defined by what you aren't. But if you are defined by what you aren't, then what you aren't is what you are!
    You are caught in the fiction that you exist as a separate human being when in fact the more you try to define yourself as separate the more you must define what you are separate from.
    This happened to you long ago as a child as you learned how to "be yourself", "to "be free", and to "be responsible."
    But once you know that you aren't a separate entity, freedom comes from the fact that you now realize that you and everything else are the same "thing". No need to look for salvation, to believe in a god or gods, no need correct the evils of the world, no need to feel guilt or strive for perfection, no need to rid yourself of an ego, no need to do anything at all.
     
  12. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    You forgot to tell him, "There is no spoon..."
     
  13. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Nothing at all to do, yet that doesn't really tell us anything at all.
    If we want improve our self, to become an enlightened being, to come into the grace of God...are we to do nothing?

    And at this point we must stop and consider why we want improve our self, to become an enlightened being, or to come into the grace of God? If we are honest with our self we must admit that the desire is itself nothing more than the act of making the ego feel better. Look at me, I have transcended the self and attained a higher goal; yet the exercise has been nothing more than another game played by the ego.
    The ego is nothing more than an automatic mechanism programed by society to perpetuate itself at all costs. You find you aren't the free independent being you have been led to believe you are but a social construct tied to the rules and dictates of society.
    And still the ego may persist. "I'm not a social construct," "I am a separate being," "I see the game being played." "I, as a witness to all these things, see what's going on!"
    And the final battle begins.....
     
  14. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    This part is a good example of his struggle with systems logic, and to avoid contextual vagueness. He's leaning heavily on the principle of identity and the fact that English is still taught as having only one grammar. The saving grace is his efforts are transparent, so you can follow what he's attempting to say more easily.
     
  15. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    We have reached the stage where there are things which happen to us, and the observation by us, of those things happening to us.
    I can see that my ego is not separate from everything else and I can see myself realizing this is so. But this is still the same thing. It is nothing more than my old friend the ego watching my ego.
    But at this point the trap disappears for if there is someone in a trap, there must be trap to catch them. If I am caught there must freedom, if I have no free will there must be free choice. None of these things can exist without its opposite.
    Things happen. That's all. What happens on one side of your skin is no different than what happens on the other. The sense of control comes about as what happens on the inside is so much less than what happens on the outside. Air enters your lungs without trying, eyes see without looking, thoughts come and go with the clouds in the sky.
    "When purpose has been used to achieve purposelessness, the thing has been grasped." ~ The Secret of the Golden Flower
     
  16. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Time to review what we have covered so far.

    1.
    Opposites are merely different aspects of the same "thing."
    2. We are not separate from our environment.
    3. Intelligent beings mean an Intelligent environment.
    4. Our egos lead us to believe we exist only within our bodies.
    5. Our egos are a social construct.
    6. The desire to be free of the ego, or egotism, is just anther defense of the ego, by the ego.

    What do we do now?

     
  17. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    What Watts struggles to communicate, is that the issue is the lowest possible energy state of the complete system, because he has no clue what systems logics are, which is what Asian philosophy is all about. He spent his career attempting to learn it and, eventually, converted to Taoism as "less dramatic". Everything in the environment tends to work towards occupying the lowest possible energy state, with a car engine idling being an example. When you stomp on the gas, the engine roars to life and can occupy any higher energy state faster, but the engine takes longer to wind down when you pull your foot off the gas. This expresses particle-wave duality, and how energy and information exchange identities.

    His logic sucks, but it was his first popular book. Hippies like to say, "Whenever harmony is lost, balance will be restored" and the systems approach is to maintain harmony whenever possible, and to impose balance whenever necessary, in order to promote harmony. The more you can promote harmony in yourself, the more you can promote in the environment, and vice versa. Harmony is in occupying the lowest possible energy state whenever possible.
     
  18. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    So harmony lies in absolute zero, zero Kelvin, and death?
     
  19. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    Absolute zero is impossible, and the lowest possible energy state of the system is a car idling, not rusting. No energy, no lowest possible energy state.
     
  20. hotwater

    hotwater Senior Member Lifetime Supporter

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    The Bose–Einstein condensate is about as close as you're going to get to absolute zero
     

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