The Book, On the Taboo Against Knowing Who you Are

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by MeAgain, Aug 18, 2021.

  1. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Another notion is the Ceramic Model of the world in which we think that the universe is made up of some substance or substances leading to impossible questions such as:
    Unanswerable questions must be considered to have been asked in the wrong way. As formless matter or matterless form has never been discovered we must assume that the Ceramic Model is wrong. Form and matter are not two separate things but merely two different aspects of the same thing.
    Matter and meter are words that derive from the Sanskrit matr, to measure. Meaning that the world of matter is nothing more than that which we measure by nets, grids, inches and pounds. Measured form becomes matter.

    But in the West we consider the act of measuring form to engender something called matter which then leads us to wonder how on earth mere matter can move about, think, and become an "independent" person. This then leads us to think that there must be an outside source to this independent person, something that causes it to become animate, something that created it, something we then term god.
     
  2. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    This independent agent, this something that animates mere matter, in the popular image, was modeled on the period kings and patriarchs. A merciful yet stern and demanding ruler of those beneath his oversight and outside of themselves.
    As such we could trust that our lives were governed by someone more intelligent, more important, and more aware of the whole picture of the kingdom at large. We need not fear abandonment as what king doesn't love his subjects and seek to provide for their well being, otherwise his kingdom fails.
    But with this protection and oversight comes the need to acknowledge the superiority of the king and obey his edicts, or feel the wrath of said king. For to disobey upsets the workings of the kingdom.
    Of course unlike a king, this image of God is an image of an all seeing, all knowing being; and who wants to be watched every moment of every day?
    Eventually many in the West realized the shortcomings of this model and grew tired of it and the idea of an all knowing, all seeing God was discarded.
    The Deists, such as Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine held that God created the universe, then went away leaving us on our own.
    The atheists and agnostics held that the universe created itself by accident.

     
  3. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    An accidental birth came to be the generally accepted explanation of the origin of the universe. A mishmash of irreducible atoms randomly combining to form rocks, trees, animals, man, and eventually mind. But if random events could form all of those things, then another random event or events could also unform, or destroy them just as easily.
    Therefore mankind must control this unintelligent mess to prevent that from happening, as there is no god. There is no one to save the world but us.
    The myth of the "Fully Automatic Universe" was born and the sooner you realized that chaos could result at any time the stronger and more rational you were.
    Nature had to be analyzed as though it were a machine, broken down into parts, mechanisms, cause and effects.
    On the plus side this led to fantastic advances in science and technology. On the negative side it led to an incomplete understanding of what was gong on. Instead of asking what does it do, we asked what it is made of.

    The man behind the microscope
    Has this advice for you:
    "Instead of asking what it is,
    Just ask, 'What does it do?'"
     
  4. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

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    Sounds like "nothingbutism" (aka reductionism) to me. From a Darwinian point of view, survival and reproduction are the things that count as far as nature is concerned, but I don't give a shit about nature's priorities, since I don't think nature has a brain. I find life in all its remarkable aspects, including my internal life, enjoyable and fascinating, and I have my own goals, values and reasons to continue living after nature's priorities have been taken care of. As for non-self, I know you believe it, but I think it's questionable Buddhist doctrine.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2021
  5. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Well, it's still incredibly odd, and fascinating at the same time. Why does nature put such an emphasis on survival and reproduction? Is there something to be gained, or something to be lost, and if so what?

    When you think about it are we much different from cave men and women, other than having ever more new and ever greater complicated social and technological patterns? Or for that matter a mosquito?
     
  6. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    But going beyond what is it and then asking what does it do still isn't enough, we also need to include where is it, in what surroundings?

    If we consider the human body we must ask what it is, then what does it do, and finally what are its surroundings?
    Asking what it is or what it is doing without considering its surroundings is to entirely void whatever conclusions we can draw as to what it is and what its doing.
    A human body laying on a sanding beach in Bermuda is completely different from a human body in a vacuum.
    In astrology a horoscope is drawn depicting the state of the universe at moment of one's birth. It is a rough, incomplete, and inaccurate picture that has little practical validity. But the theory behind it is that you are an intricate part of the universe. You are not in your body or just your body, you are a particular aspect of the entire universe.

    To modern, rational man this is an unrealistic view of the self. Each of us is a separate individual which can exist on its own. But if we are removed from our proper environment we die. We are not an irreducible separate thing, or part; the only irreducible thing is the totally of the universe. We can subjectively divide it up by giving different aspects certain names, but we are dividing it up in name only. In precisely the same way, the individual is separate from his universal environment only in name.
     
  7. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

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    As I said, nature (to our knowledge) has no brain, so it's risky to attribute a purpose to it. Of course, there could be a higher purpose or cosmic plan, which gets us into God (be fruitful and
    multiply). Possibly survival and reproduction is a necessary but not sufficient condition for the existence of sentient beings. I was told on my Mother's knee that God made me to love Him, to serve Him and be happy with Him in heaven. Maybe same with dogs,cats and cockroaches. But such questions may be above our pay grade. Why is there something instead of nothing? Tielhard de chardin got into questions like that in an evolutionary context. I tend to just accept it as it is and try to make the best of it. To me, existence is both infinitely beautiful and perpetually ineffable.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2021
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  8. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    Watts was not a linguist, he was a scholar, and they think of words as objects, and treat the English language like metaphysics. He desperately needed to study Wittgenstein at the very least, but he could have written fine romance novels.
     
  9. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    On the other hand society declares we are not separate, but part of the group. Immerse social pressures are brought to bear in the form of telling us how to act, what roles we play in jobs and social functions, how to talk, what attitudes to assume, etc.. Even our thoughts and emotions are influenced by language and our parents and peers. Excrement smells bad, vomiting is unpleasant, and death is to be dreaded.
    Social pressures assure us that we are inseparable from the group, but at the same time they then turn around and tell us how great we are as an individual!
    This is known as a double bind.
    Children are taught that they are responsible for their own actions, they have a mind of their own, they are unique. Yet when they act in a contradictory manner to what the parent expects they are chastised. "You must put away your toys", "Good girls don't act like that", "It's time to go to sleep", "Don't talk back", on and on. The child is placed in a position where he or she is told that they are a responsible individual human being, a free agent, and then made to conform to society's rules.
     
  10. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    Watts is struggling with the concept that the English language has more than one grammar, and classic logic doesn't describe the world around us, which obeys fuzzy logic. Its too bad really, his writing isn't bad, just archaic and plodding, and simply needs to actually reflect the subject. Deng Meng Dao is a much better modern author, but he wants a pretty penny too.
     
  11. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    I don't quite follow. Are you criticizing his writing style or concepts?
     
  12. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    The Sanskrit Arthashastra describes the rules of society for a monarch:
    Trust no one.
    Have no close friends.
    Organize the government in concentric circles of alternating rings of enemies and those deposed to agree with you. Divide et impera.
    Meanwhile, remain in the inner chambers surrounded by guards who guard guards.
    Have a secret passage for escape,
    and remember you can never win.
     
  13. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    Both. His writing style is not appropriate to the subject. He is using classic logic to describe fuzzy logic, which is what academics promote, because they are all complete idiots, who insist even a joke must make sense. Deng Meng Dao is among the most respected academic scholars in the world, but he grew up speaking both English and Chinese, because he's from Hong Kong, and comprehends the limits of the English language better than most. His writing is NOT lite reading, but its quite beautiful.
     
  14. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    "Classic" logic has a long history in spiritual practices. The historical Buddha used logic, Nagarjuna used logic, there are Buddhist schools of logic, the Rig Veda has sections based on logic, and Nyaya is a school of Hindu logic. So Watts is merely following in their steps. But besides that I'm not really sure what you mean when you describe what Watts has written in this book as classic logic. In my understanding classic logic implies conclusions that are either true or false. Fuzzy logic implies a variation of true/falseness. It seems to me Watts whole point is to transcend the idea of truth and falseness completely, so I don't know what you mean.
    Regardless I don't really care about writing style other than some styles are easier and or more enjoyable to read than others.

    I've read some Deng Meng Dao. It's okay.
     
  15. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    The Buddha himself expressed an interest in fuzzy logic, but the modern formulation had to wait for Japanese engineers to become desperate enough to try anything. Fuzzy Logic contradicts classic logic and requires a sense of humor to master, both of which are considered threats to the establishment.

    Basically, what even Watts never touched on or was aware of, is that humor is not meaningless, as taught in civilization. The simplest way to add more meaning to any logic or metaphysics, is to acquire a sense of humor, but Watts would go to his grave penniless if he started claiming you can make much more sense out of academia, the wealthy, and mainstream, by closely examining their lack of humor. If you never actually know any alternatives to classic logic, you are most certainly never a threat to the establishment.
     
  16. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    So we have an individual who is seen as a free agent, yet commanded to obey the tenets of society and the double bind is set up.
    But a third possibility exists as a means to escape the double bind and that is that the individual is a point of expression of the entire universe. In this way the ego is retained but not seen as something that must survive. Free reign is given to the individual to be a free agent, to conform to society, and yet not be pigeonholed into being one or the other.
    We can exists as a unique individual without fearing the total destruction of that individual through death, as as an inseparable part of the universe death is merely a transition, not a finality.
     
  17. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    How so?
    Could you elaborate?
     
  18. wooleeheron

    wooleeheron Brain Damaged Lifetime Supporter

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    The 12,000 year old Bagua is the source of the I-Ching and Tao Te Ching, and all the fuzzy logic that can be used to design cruise missile guidance systems. Current computers are just powerful enough to crack the entire fuzzy logic, requiring 4,430 poems, that would otherwise require another 12,000 years to write.

    Jokes express both language and mathematics, simultaneously, conflating their identities. This is because time itself is neither linear nor nonlinear, but both, its magical or beyond human comprehension, and Zeno was another optimist like Murphy. Being low in content, or entropy, means they express the fact time can even be observed flowing backwards on macroscopic scales. What all that means, is simply that nature is the very definition of analog, and 42 is as good as it gets, but academia and the mainstream will go their graves insisting their lives are more meaningful, because they can produce weapons of mass destruction and make money.
     
  19. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    As we live in this double bind we are continually taught to work toward a reward. First in grade and secondary school, then collage, then getting a good job, excelling in the job, and finally attaining retirement.
    All this is fine if we approach it as a game to be enjoyed and not as away to earn money to purchase some future reward at the expense of living today.
    In other words we, in particular Americans, have become materialist in the sense that we seek material gains as a means to enjoyment instead of pure enjoyment. But Watts then tells us if we were truly materialists we would act differently.
     
  20. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    And while we rely on material goods for happiness the world is continually falling apart. Impermanence reigns.
    In the past two different solutions to this fact were prevalent. One answer was to withdraw from the world and material things by becoming an ascetics or joining a religious faction and renouncing the world, thus escaping the process of trying to find happiness through material gain.
    The other was to consider material objects to gifts from God and they should be used as a means to praise God as an object of devotion, as seen in the architecture of the fantastic Gothic cathedrals.
    Both solutions are founded upon the premise that man, or his or her ego is separate from God, or the creation, or universe. Something that must be held onto or rejected apart from oneself.

    But a third possibility exists, that is to see the world not apart from oneself, but as the world itself. To see oneself as merely another part of the continuing never ending, never beginning process.
     

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