The 2nd Amendment

I already answered your bullshit hypothetical question more than once.

You are just trying to make gun owners look like violent, cold blooded killers. Which is pathetic on your part.

I have already explained to you the scenario in which I would protect myself and my home, yet you still maintain the 'innocent police officer' babble.

So, it is obvious not only do companion animals lives matter less to you than humans who would kill said animals in their own home, a person being secure in their homes and effects does not matter to you. All that matters is the will of the state, and the state is innocent no matter what.

You are truly fascist in your thinking. Bow down to the authoritarian gov't.. they will provide you with everything you need.

 

Deviate

NO – you have evaded giving a direct answer more than once – but please prove me wrong.

NO I’m not – I’m asking you how you would react and you are continuing to evade giving a direct answer - why?

I asked you what you would do if you lost the court case to keep your gun and the police asked for it, would you still refuse?

I asked would you refuse up to the point where the police had no choice but to raid your house.

Would you in such a case shot at, even try to kill the police officers who were just fulfilling their duty?

You seem to imply you would – but I’m still unsure because you continue to evade answering directly.

Again if you just read my theories you’d understand that, I’m about trying to stop authoritarian ‘government’. To me the problem is that I think many pro-gunners believe the guns will protect them and so do very little (if anything) to actually counter the establishment. That could be done politically but only if they were willing to ditch the views that help the establishment to stay in power and realign the political system so that it is not a threat to its people.

 

I rarely drink tea, and I don't ever eat scones

(Fair enough Gongshaman - thanks for clearing that up)


deviate

I think many Americans would not buy into any of the scenarios mentioned in that list.
What are they - liberal government lovin' stooges?
I think if it is ok for people to talk about my country with out living here, it is ok for me to talk about their country with out living there.
It's a poor get out clause to say otherwise.
You are right though, I don't live in the U.S, and couldn't possibly have as much sense of the changes there as you possibly do.
I can read that list and think it is borderline crazy, though.
I could be wrong (so could they/you).
Reading some of the other thoughts, and the general tone of that Facebook, page makes me think they are not well balanced individuals - not in the sense they have mental health issues, but they lean too far one way.
I hope I am a little more balanced than that.
They and you have to give some basis for thinking any of that is likely - not just the fact some helicopters flew over head..
I've read scenarios like that quite a few times over the years - to me they seem to be the usual doom laden scenarios that always get trotted out.
Not necessarily based on any facts - but more to do with the prejudices of those writing them.

Ok, fair enough. Why post the thoughts of people that are and do?

 

1. And until someone commits an unlawful act I'm willing to give them the benefit of doubt and consider them to be law abiding citizens. We already have what I consider to be strong regulations in effect, to deal with those who infringe upon the rights of others, and passing preemptive laws which would at best serve to criminalize otherwise law abiding citizens and nothing more. Perhaps you would be better served by seeking professional help to put your self created worries to rest.

2. Are you suggesting the use of nuclear weapons when a small arm would serve the purpose? I think it should be noted that both police and the military more often than not, become aware and respond to their need AFTER the fact, and seldom before. You previously brought up the need for social, economic, and political changes to eliminate/reduce crime. I'm curious as to what social, economic, or political changes would have an effect on rapists, child molesters, psychopaths, like a serial killer?

militia -
1. A military force of civilians to supplement a regular army in an emergency.
2. A military force that engages in rebel activities.

Perhaps the 2nd amendment should also be viewed in relation to 'The Declaration of Independence" as a cause for inclusion in the U.S. Constitution.

3. No.

 

The Second Amendment is my gun license! So, (speaking for myself) I would totally refuse ANY disarmament measures, and I would meet force with force. Any true patriot would do the same, and disobey ANY Unconstitutional laws/orders.

The Constitution > The Government!!!

 

This is a load of Propaganda! They don't tell you that one has a better chance to die from FALLING than from gun violence!!!

Let's make all ledges and high places illegal!!

 

Meagain!! You came back to the party! :cheers2:

 

Unless that true patriot was a scared black kid, trying to defend himself from armed strangers. That changes everything up.

 

That black kid you're referring to wasn't a patriot, he was a criminal holding an illegal pistol, and aiming it at people (probably because they were white.)

I don't like the NYPD, their "stop and frisk" laws, or the police state it is, which uses military grade weaponry. But, pointing a gun at anyone, is liable to get you shot. I'd shoot someone if they pointed a gun at me! That's why I don't defend "Mr. Grey" as a true patriot. More likely, he was packing heat for another reason than expressing his Second Amendment.

 

The illegality of the pistol is irellivent to ANYTHING, because you're arguing against the illegality of firearms at large. It shows exactly how serious you are about rights: totally serious, until it's rights for someone you don't like and gain nothing by siding with.

"probably because they were white" it total and complete bullshit. It's probably because they behaved in a menacing way without properly identifying themselves (or, a menacing way, even if they did identify themselves). Either way, his reason can not be divined and you are just making excuses about unknowable things, to reduce the cognitive dissonance you feel between your opinions about guns, and your opinion when a unfamiliar black youth in the dark has a gun.

You'd shoot someone if they pointed a gun at you, and apparently, he'd try, if two people pointed guns at him. Why do you think think the second amendment exists, so that you can exercise your right to be able to shoot those who endanger you, but not actually shoot them? He DID exercise his second amendment right, he tried to protect himself against those who would (did) do him harm. He probably didn't know that it was his right, but he knew that it was wrong that he could be menaced without being on a level playing field -- he tried to level the field.

But of course, the fact is that we don't even know why he was shot. Maybe the police instructed him to stay still, and he made the logical (but slightly mis-timed) move of informing them that he had a weapon -- I have had to tell police searching me that I had a knife, several times, and though that knife has never caused me a problem, it's always been awkward and tense as I explain that. If I didn't explain it, I could have ended up beaten, tazed, or shot, but I could have also ended up any of those things for being nervous and not picking or timing my words well. He could have easily blurted out that he had a gun, and died without having any intention of drawing the gun. I'm not saying that's what did happen, but I'm saying that since you're in the business of making up motives and situations, when we don't know but there's no evidence against him beyond "he died, and had a gun" (and again, you think having a gun should be okay), it's just as logical to say that he "probably" tried to inform the police that he had a gun to protect their safety and his, and they shot him.

And, being white, if I was shot and killed upon telling the police that I had a knife, the story would have been that I came at them with a knife, and they thought about their kids faces, and heroically shot me, and the news story would have a picture of my big scary "tactical" knife, and people on the internet would say that I was a thug who had been in prior legal trouble and had probably attacked the cop just because he was black, and that everybody should be able to carry knives but that mine shouldn't be legal (after all, it's scary and black, and the news report would make it look three times it's size), and it would be concluded that I wouldn't carry a knife if I didn't want to kill or intimidate people, and that I thought I'd get some gang rep by killing a lawman, or whatever. And the reality would be that it never left my pocket and I just tried to warn the cop so nobody would have any nasty surprises.

 

I told you I would fight it through the court. I'm well versed in the appellate process, and I would be tireless.

Contrary to what you might think.. I don't want to die. I don't want to end up in prison even if it was an unjust imprisonment. And contrary to what you might think, a police officer is not 'innocent' for 'just fulfilling his duty'.. if it is in violation of the laws of my land. You are really exposing just how indoctrinated you are by authoritarian gov't. And I don't blame you for it but it is the truth. Nazi stormtroopers were 'just fulfilling their duty' as well.

This is also impractical once again. Courts would not be hearing individual cases for millions of firearms owners. If there is a confiscation, it is going to be widely resisted resulting in blood being spilled and extreme force exerted by the gov't.

I like what you had to say in your last paragraph, however, it also shows your gross misunderstanding of our society over here.

 

Im about to go to bed, so I can't reply to all this right now! But where does it say the cops pulled a gun on him? It doesn't! And if they did then I'm utterly sorry for talking shit about Mr. Grey. But you don't know anymore about the circumstances than I do.

But to a degree I see where you're coming from. Idk how those cops came at the kid! They probably did freak him out, and he may have just assumed since they were holding guns, that they were going to try something. But, I also know cops in NY; good cops who have stopped hostage situations without any bloodshed, and from that perspective, they probably also thought they were going to get shot.

So it's not actually that I only support the right to bear arms when it's "easy," it's that every gun owner can't be penalized for one kids acting stupid and waving a pistol around. I've been to jail in NY; most gun cases, they just throw away. This kid threatened the police, and they retaliated. Perhaps we should question the role of government, and if the current situation helps or hurts us more.

I believe things like this hurt humanity, rather than helping us on a non violent path. It just breeds more senseless violence. But it's hard for me to say that Mr. Grey did not initiate the violence in this case, because pulling a gun on someone is pretty foolish. But I also agree that police could've taken more productive measures. But even if a white guy pulled a gun on a cop, he'd be shot. So I don't really get where you're getting at with regards to the second amendment, cause it simply doesn't apply when you threaten an officer.

 

My point with regards to the second amendment is that if there was no prohibition on him having a gun, no reason that he would think he would get in trouble if they talked to him and found that he had a gun, there would have been no situation. It would have been just like when I've been searched with a legal knife: the cop raises their eyebrows, but you're not breaking the law, so that's that.

And, while I think you mis-intrepert the second amendment, if we go with your opinion on it, the law concerning the gun was illigitimate, and the cops are usurpers of the peace and of civil liberties, on behalf of tyrrany.... so it makes the kid in the right, and he would be, no matter who died, if his motive (for whatever he did or did not do) was as simple as "get away without being caught with this gun". Because he was doing something that (again, not according to my logic, but yours) should not be wrong.

 

Was this is NYC? And the gun was illegal if a) it wasn't registered as is required in NY, and b) he didn't have a carry permit. If it was in NYC it was illegal outright.

Can someone give me some background on this story?

 

Well yes, it was. But I don't take that as a reason that him having it was suspicious or wrong, or that the possibility that he tried to use force to avoid trouble because of the gun was wrong, when it's presented by people who think all guns should be legal and that they would shoot people who came to take their guns.

 

I've been talking about the federal level there buddy.

While I don't agree with it, state and local laws are up to their constituents to lobby and change. The bill of rights limits the federal gov't. That is my beef. Blanketed federal policies that usurp the Constitution.

While guns are not the only reason I live here, I live in a pro 2nd amendment state for a reason. I don't live in NY for a reason.

Additionally, everyone knows that you pull out a gun on cops you get shot. ESPECIALLY in a zero gun tolerance city like NYC. Sounds like one less idiot is alive to me.

 

I'm totally against the war on drugs. Selling drugs does not make someone a criminal. I don't even think him carrying a gun around should be illegal. But the cops shot him cause they felt threatened, and I can't really blame them for that. I support the second Amendment, but there's a fine line i think between peaceably baring arms, and bearing arms with intentions to do harm.

 

I'd much prefer your take on 1 - 7

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=7599891&postcount=424

 

Indie

And thank you once again for pushing the fear button and once again backing up my theories.
Another advert promoting guns -

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