The 2nd Amendment

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Maelstrom, Feb 3, 2013.

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  1. deviate

    deviate Senior Member

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    No, their crime rate is not low because they hold assault weapons. Their crime is low because of a complex bunch of issues that contribute to their society. For one, they are more or less socialist without an overbearing gov't. Which is an anomaly to say the least and that would not be the case here if we relinquish that kind of power to the gov't.

    My point is that "assault weapons" are arbitrary in terms of the overall state of a society, and it is simple minded and short sighted to believe that a ban on them will improve anything here. In fact, it will make it worse.

    Additionally, we do have large amounts of assault weapons. The gun shops around here sell 200+ per week (at least since the dems tried to introduce bans). I think that if someone is determined to kill they will kill regardless of having a 30 round mag or not. And disarming the good people is outright stupid, because we are the ones that will stop any killings if we are there.

    Finally, I'm a libertarian. I believe in a decentralized federal gov't, minimal federal regulation (and taxation), and more state and local power as that is easier for the people to be heard and change policy.
     
    deviate, Mar 24, 2013
    #401
  3. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    :2thumbsup: Yes, they are a different society! So what was the video supposed to convey? I missed it.
    How so?
    What do you mean arbitrary? Are you saying they have no effect on society?
    Are you saying that banning assault weapons will have a negative effect on society? Again, how so? How does this relate to their arbitrary nature?
    True, but we don't have an assault weapon in the household of every male between the ages of, what is it 18? and 30/34.
    I know this, I'm not totally stupid, although I'm sure it appears that way from time to time. The point is a 6 shot revolver needs to be reloaded after 6 shots. A weapon with a 30 round magazine needs to be reloaded after 30 shots. That could be 24 more people dead.
    That's fine, but I have no idea what a decentralized Federal government is. I thought it was decentralized as power is spread out over three branches consisting of about 535 different elected individuals and 12 appointees.

    But, thanks for replying, I really do enjoy the discussion.
     
    MeAgain, Mar 24, 2013
    #402
  5. deviate

    deviate Senior Member

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    1. and 2. For starters, they are neutral as far as foreign policy. Additionally, they don't have a standing army - the people are the army. They don't have a history of elected officials abusing power, denying rights, selling out for money, using the military for imperialistic purposes. Do you want me to go on?

    3. They are arbitrary in the sense they account for something like 2 percent of homicides by firearm. The powers that be just single them out and brainwash most citizens, because they don't want us capable of defending ourselves against tyranny.

    4. The 94-04 ban on assault weapons saw no decrease in crime. Historically, gun bans cause violent crime to spike.

    5. Most everyone I know has guns, or has access to them. Handguns, shotguns, sniper rifles, AK47s, AR15s, UZIs, MAC10s.. you name it. And I know a lot of people. I'm talking about all walks of life. I know some non gun owners as well.

    6. Even most professionals aren't going to kill 24 people with 24 bullets. If they can, they can also change a magazine out basically faster than you blink. More innocent people will die by missing 6 times at a violent intruder, and being overtook because they ran out of bullets, than innocent people will die in mass shootings. And if the gun free zone act was repealed, you would see mass shootings become a thing of the past.

    7. The federal gov't is not decentralized. Think of all the things they do that is supposed to be limited by the Constitution. The US code has grown so much that it would take years upon years to even properly read. The amount of federal agencies.. I feel that the feds should be in charge on the interstate highways and national defense, that's it.

    Legislative branch

    Main article: United States Congress
    Agencies within the legislative branch:

    Judicial branch

    Main article: United States federal courts
    Agencies within the judicial branch:

    Executive branch

    Main article: United States federal executive departments
    Executive Office of the President

    Main article: Executive Office of the President of the United States
    Agencies within the Executive Office of the President:

    United States Department of Agriculture

    Main article: United States Department of Agriculture
    Agencies within the Department of Agriculture:

    United States Department of Commerce

    Main article: United States Department of Commerce
    Agencies within the Department of Commerce:

    United States Department of Defense

    Main article: United States Department of Defense
    Agencies within the Department of Defense:

    United States Department of Education

    Main article: United States Department of Education
    Agencies within the Department of Education:

    United States Department of Energy

    Main article: United States Department of Energy
    List of agencies within the Department of Energy:

    United States Department of Health and Human Services

    Main article: United States Department of Health and Human Services
    Agencies within the Department of Health and Human Services:

    United States Department of Homeland Security

    Main article: United States Department of Homeland Security
    Agencies


    Offices


    Management


    National Protection and Programs


    Science and Technology


    Portfolios


    Divisions


    Offices and Institutes


    United States Department of Housing and Urban Development

    Main article: United States Department of Housing and Urban Development
    Agencies


    Offices


    Corporation


    United States Department of the Interior

    Main article: United States Department of the Interior

    United States Department of Justice

    Main article: United States Department of Justice

    United States Department of Labor

    Main article: United States Department of Labor
    Agencies and Bureaus


    Boards


    Offices


    United States Department of State

    Main article: United States Department of State
    Agencies and Bureaus


    Reporting to the Secretary


    Reporting to the Deputy Secretary for Management and Resources


    Reporting to the Under Secretary for Arms Control and International Security


    Reporting to the Under Secretary for Democracy and Global Affairs


    Reporting to the Under Secretary for Economic, Energy and Agricultural Affairs


    Reporting to the Under Secretary for Management


    Reporting to the Under Secretary for Political Affairs


    Reporting to the Under Secretary for Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs


    Permanent Diplomatic Missions


    United States Department of Transportation

    Main article: United States Department of Transportation
    Agencies


    United States Department of the Treasury

    Main article: United States Department of the Treasury
    Agencies and Bureaus


    Offices


    • Office of Domestic Finance
    • Office of Economic Policy
    • Office of International Affairs
    • Office of Tax Policy
    • Office of Terrorism and Financial Intelligence
    • Treasurer of the United States
    United States Department of Veterans Affairs

    Main article: United States Department of Veterans Affairs
    Agencies


    Boards and Offices


    • Board of Veterans' Appeals
    • Center for Faith-Based and Community Initiatives
    • Center for Minority Veterans
    • Center for Veterans Enterprise
    • Center for Women Veterans
    • Office of Advisory Committee Management
    • Office of Employment Discrimination Complaint Adjudication
    • Office of Survivors Assistance
    • Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization
    • Veterans Service Organizations Liaison
    Independent Agencies and Government Corporations


    Proposed Government Corporation


    Inspectors General


    Boards and commissions


    Chartered Organizations

    These organizations are some of the organizations who hold a congressional charter. They aren't part of the United States government, even though some are funded by the United States government.

    There are several other organizations that are also chartered.
    Quasi-Official Agencies


    Private Regulatory Corporation


    Government entities created by acts but are independent or other entities


    Government Enterprises




    Other

    These entities listed almost below are other entities government related that are government related and created in various ways.

     
    deviate, Mar 24, 2013
    #403
  7. deviate

    deviate Senior Member

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    Your tax dollars hard at work.
     
    deviate, Mar 24, 2013
    #404
  9. Gongshaman

    Gongshaman Modus Lascivious

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    Well, 'utopia' certainly has become a poisonous word in that the during the red scare days the propaganda machine did one hella job embedding in the American psyche the idea that it is somehow linked with socialism and/or communism.... so coming from the likes of you it just sounds downright derogatory.
     
    Gongshaman, Mar 24, 2013
    #405
  11. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    LOL, That's great deviate!!!

    Makes it hard to respond to though, lot of scrolling around, I'll have to load in two versions of this so I can read what I'm responding to!!
    Alright, got my second window up here.....

    So your 1 and 2. No I don't want you to go on. That was my point, they are two separate governments and societies. So I don't understand the point f the video.

    3.
    I'd have to see statistics on that. 2% of all firearm homicides from what date to what date? It matters because of the time frame that assault weapons became available to the public. What is the kill rate of homicides involving assault weapons verses, say shotguns or other weapons. What is the time span of the crime verses the rate of kill for assault weapons? In other words how long does it take to kill x number of people with an assault weapon verses another firearm? What is the percentage of homicides involving assault weapons verses other firearms in relation to the number of assault weapons verses other firearms? What type of response was, or is needed to counter homicides or crimes involving assault weapons verses other firearms? The North Hollywood shootout comes to mind, when illegally modified fully automatic assault rifles with high capacity drum magazines were used. (I know the guns were illegally modified, but the point is assault weapons crimes have usually only ended when the gunman was out gunned by government forces. I know of no attack thwarted by a civilian armed with another assault weapon. And so on. Maybe other guns should also be banned, is that what you are suggesting? :wink: (Pulling your leg there!)

    4. Really? So we're back to "banning or not banning guns" is the only thing that affects crime? And gun bans cause all crime to spike? Really?

    5.
    That's nice, what am I to infer from that?

    6. I understand about a one bullet to one kill ratio. I should have said the chance of killing more people faster increases very quickly with the size of the magazine and fire rate.
    That's why I would prefer a shotgun when firing at an intruder in my home, it's pretty hard to miss the first time. No need for 100 rounds a minute.
    Pure speculation. Idealism I believe.

    7.
    Then you post a ten page list of different agencies run by a multitude of people from all over the country, from all walks of life, that address issues from one end of the country to the next.
    We do not have a de facto centralized government in the hands of a few, we have a de jure, lawfully elected Federal government. Look up what a Federal government is please. It is centralized in the fact that it enacts national laws that are written by State Representatives and Senators, and which, by the Constitution, is granted certain powers over state and local governments. If it didn't have those powers it wouldn't be a Federal government and we wouldn't be living in the United States. The "centralized" Federal government is what makes us a country. Simple.
    Brilliant. Just let me drive my car and shoot my guns. Sounds like utopia to me, where do I sign up and get my assault weapon?
     
    MeAgain, Mar 24, 2013
    #406
  13. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Gongshaman, :)
     
    MeAgain, Mar 24, 2013
    #407
  15. odonII

    odonII O

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    Do you know how many are 'independent of government' / 'privatised' / Profit making /not funded by tax dollars?

    E.g:
    http://www.nfa.futures.org/NFA-about-nfa/index.HTML

    NFA is an independent regulatory organization with no ties to any specific marketplace. We operate at no cost to the taxpayer. We are financed exclusively from membership dues and from assessment fees paid by the users of the futures markets.

    http://www.ncb.coop/default.aspx?id=3682
     
    odonII, Mar 24, 2013
    #408
  17. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    The point deviate is trying to make, and correct me if I'm wrong deviate.. is that the Federal government is too large, it takes away our freedoms, and banning assault weapons is just another right it will take away from us leading to dictatorship, or socialism, or communism, or something like that. Slippery slope.

    We will become slaves to the puppet masters in Washington and our only hope is to stockpile assault weapons and lots of ammo.

    Whereas, I believe in the rule of law. Unjust laws are to be repealed or repaired by peaceful, lawful means, which may include peaceful demonstrations and non violent civil disobedience. But I draw the line at violence and guns against my fellow citizens.

     
    MeAgain, Mar 24, 2013
    #409
  19. deviate

    deviate Senior Member

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    What do you guys think about this?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV4MnhWlnMQ"]Machine Gun Fire From Black Hawk Helicopters Flying Over Miami - YouTube
     
    deviate, Mar 24, 2013
    #410
  21. deviate

    deviate Senior Member

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    More or less an accurate assessment.
     
    deviate, Mar 24, 2013
    #411
  23. odonII

    odonII O

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    I understand the point he is making. He said: 'Your tax dollars hard at work.' My point is to whittle that long list down to what actually IS funded by tax dollars? Taking away quasi-autonomous non-governmental organisations. Also removing that which makes profit. What would we be left with.
    It would also be be helpful to know which ones are effective - rather than bloated wastes of time and space.
    I went through a few and many seem to be doing some really good work, and are necessary.
    Once all that is done it would be easier to tell if it was indeed 'big government'.
    Who decides what 'big' and 'small' government looks like, anyway?

    I share your sarcasm:

    Brilliant. Just let me drive my car and shoot my guns. Sounds like utopia to me, where do I sign up and get my assault weapon?


    I understand Deviate will no doubt say: Even if it was a quarter of that it would be too much government.
     
    odonII, Mar 24, 2013
    #412
  25. deviate

    deviate Senior Member

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    Fair enough. However, I don't change my opinion.
     
    deviate, Mar 24, 2013
    #413
  27. deviate

    deviate Senior Member

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    A quarter of that list? Of course I would say that.

    You can equate me to an anti-federalist, which is the reason we have a bill of rights in the first place.

    Most of you would have been the federalists. Putting blind hope into a governmental machine with no limit in its power.
     
    deviate, Mar 24, 2013
    #414
  29. RooRshack

    RooRshack On Sabbatical

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    I could care less.

    But I'd be fucking pissed if I happened to be someone that I'm not, and driving an expensive car under where they're dropping shells, and it started hailing brass.

    Would probably be NO hope in getting them to take responsibility for it, and your insurance would ask you why you didn't nicely ask the pilot of the offending helo for his insurance documents.
     
    RooRshack, Mar 24, 2013
    #415
  31. odonII

    odonII O

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    So something happens on one night and the news station sends in a chap the next night who then tries to make out it's still happening? o_O
    Nice work if you can get it.
    They tend to send out OB's here, too.
    I've been told it's to 'sex up' the news, and give it some dynamism.
    As for the activity shown. It was a bit of an anti-climax.
     
    odonII, Mar 24, 2013
    #416
  33. odonII

    odonII O

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    I imagine I would be one of those people wishing for accountability. What are they called? Tax payers?

    I'm not quite sure why it was worth you pasting in a long list and, I presume, thinking it is all a waste of money. I don't think you were making anybody think over the size and scope of your government, to be honest.
     
    odonII, Mar 24, 2013
    #417
  35. deviate

    deviate Senior Member

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    You guys are fucking ridiculous.

    They are doing those drills all over the country. They bought 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition (most of which is hollow point, which is against the geneva conventions for use in war). They bought 2700 armored vehicles with gun ports. Thousands of automatic rifles. Loads of tactical gear.

    Yet you advocate disarming the public. None of us know what will happen in the coming months/years, but I can tell you these type of purchases are unprecedented. You may start hearing about it since 15 congressmen have already begun to question the purchases.

    This thread is a microcosm of the reasons why we are even where we are today. Nobody questions anything. Everyone just wants their social services and government aid and control. Blindly submitting to violations of our rights until they are led to a cliff like a bunch of lemmings.
     
    deviate, Mar 24, 2013
    #418
  37. odonII

    odonII O

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    *fixed
    [​IMG] :leaving:
     
    odonII, Mar 24, 2013
    #419
  39. deviate

    deviate Senior Member

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    Thank you, that was bugging the shit out of me.
     
    deviate, Mar 24, 2013
    #420
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