tell me what you think

Discussion in 'Women's Issues' started by retrofishie, May 9, 2004.

  1. retrofishie

    retrofishie Senior Member

    I may not get this out the way i really want to so please don't read this thread with me in a tone of anger, sarcasm or anything else, please just read it as emotionless words.


    I am all for equal rights for women and i think it's stupid how women used to be treated. I think that today it is pretty much as equal as it is going to get but i know that in some places and in some people there is still alot of room for change.
    I do however, feel that feminism is taken too far too often. I think that some women that are 'feminists' (i'm not saying all women!) use sexism as an excuse. this theory of mine isn't limited to just feminism, i believe it applies to all sort of 'groups' like colour, religion etc... I think that if a women gets turned down for a job and it gets given to a man, and she says that she didn't get the job because she is a woman, and the thought that maybe she just isn't qaulified doesn't even cross her mind.

    i know that i'm picking on women (i am one by the way) and please don't feel that i am attacking anyone and don't take anything i said personally, i just don't like it that people use things like gender, race and religion as reasons for their problems in life instead of thinking that maybe they did or didn't do something.

    what do you think? was anyone offended? do you know anyone like this?
     
  2. Kelly

    Kelly Member

    Sure, in some circumstances that is true. It is often easier to place the blame on other people when we feel mistreated or something doesn't go our way. However in some cases people are truly discriminated by a certain group they fit in with. Not everyone sees all people as equal and sometimes this does affect how they may treat someone else. So basically, I think it depends on the person and the situation. And no, I was not offended. You were merely stating an opinion you are entitled to.
     
  3. Maggie Sugar

    Maggie Sugar Senior Member

    What is your point? I see a future of relentless ragging against womyn from you. Have you studied gender issues, do you know the history of sexual politics, or are you just an other budding misogynist or are you just mad at you mama or your girlfriend? Do you know for a fact (not some stupid "anecdote" )that ALL womyn complain if a man gets a job?
    Do yoi have some concrete proof of this, or do you just think this is so? Don't give me a lame anecdote about your sister or some girl you are probably mad at. Give me stats or studies, Okay? Otherwise you are just talking out your ass.

    Again, what is your point? Because I haven't seen one.
     
  4. HappyJoy

    HappyJoy Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

    wow. that was harsh.
     
  5. Maggie Sugar

    Maggie Sugar Senior Member

    I don't know how long you have been around, Happy, but in the last 6 months or so this site has been plagued with a bevy of womyn hating misogynists, who disrupt this forum (and others.)

    Harsh? Maybe. Sick of abuse of womyn, on a forum which is supposed to be about womyn's issues. NOT called "Complain about the bitches in your life" forum? YES.

    I've been here a while, sweetie. Seen a lot. Were you here on the old board? Did you see some of the abuse? If not, then don't call my response "harsh."
     
  6. HappyJoy

    HappyJoy Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

    yes, i was here and i read many many of your posts and to be honest i'm a little afraid of you. i respect your opinion, which is usually made up of facts, but you're always so quick to attack everyone. not to say i never agree with you because i usually do, you just seem to present your points in a very "AAHHHH! LISTEN TO ME YOU IDIOTS!!! GIVE ME QUOTES!!!! GIVE ME CITATIONS!!!! YOUR OPINIONS AND LIFE EXPERIENCES ARE WRONG!!!!!" way. From what I've read, MOST (i know, not all) people don't really mean much harm, and definately could benefit from being educated on the issues more, all I'm saying is you're a little harsh about it. On the other hand, I did read a lot of the abuse and most of them did deserve to get yelled at. I just think that not everyone deserves it. I know, what is my opinion worth? Probably not a whole lot.
    Don't take this the wrong way, either, I actually stayed here because I read a post about smoking weed while breastfeeding that you put up a very long and informational argument aboout. Because I am pregnant and planning to breastfeed, I try to read as many of your posts as I can because I have found that you do have the most factual information about everything, as well as the experience, and you're always speaking on the topics that interest me.
    But anyway, I was just saying...
     
  7. Maggie Sugar

    Maggie Sugar Senior Member

    Oh my. PLEASE don't be afraid of me!!!I have strong opinions and a rather er....assertive manner, but I am fair, although I don't suffer fools and I will call them out to make their points workable. And, I do NOT consider you a fool, dear, not at all. (I am sorry, I didn't recognise the name right away.)

    I also try to stay out of discussions where I don''t know the subject matter all that well, so I am not always in the know. If I am interested I educate myself or just keep reading. A couple of the many things I can think of in this vein are very early toilet training of babies and home schooling. I don't know a lot about either (as I didn't do either) so I just read and listen to people who know more than me about the subject.

    I am actually a pretty nice chick, tough and far from a push over, but I can be nice. Please don't be afraid of me.

    Congrats on your pregnancy!

    Hugs,

    Maggie
     
  8. HappyHaHaGirl

    HappyHaHaGirl *HipForums Princess*

    Most feminists annoy me. I don't hate them. I agree with them about a lot of things, but some chicks get really agressive and over the top about it. Especially when they get pissed off at other chicks who disagree with anything they say and try to make them feel stupid.
     
  9. HappyHaHaGirl

    HappyHaHaGirl *HipForums Princess*

    Most feminists annoy me. I don't hate them. I agree with them about a lot of things, but some chicks get really agressive and over the top about it. Especially when they get pissed off at other chicks who disagree with anything they say and try to make them feel stupid. People like that always get posts like this all caught up in bitchy femaelstroms of pointless female bantering.

    I do like being a woman, though. If that counts. ;)
     
  10. dawn_sky

    dawn_sky Senior Member

    To be honest, Maggie Sugar, your first post did seem far more harsh than it needed to be. Yes, I was around in the old forums but have been far too busy this past semester to hang out on here much.

    To the original post, yes, I do feel that some people take issues too far. Whether the issue is gender, race, religion, etc., there will likely always be people who want to lay their troubles at someone else's feet. And, there will always be people who are more sensitive than others to comments that sound sexist or whatever -- not that sexist comments are OK, but sometimes the offender will realize his/her mistake if you just give them a look & say "don't be a dumbass" instead of jumping down their throat.

    I would even argue that the more extreme feminists -- the visible minority instead of the reasonable majority -- take it to the point of being female chauvanists. In the interest of raising themselves up, they come off as being just as sexist against men as the average misogynist is against women. No, I don't have anything more than anecdotal evidence of this, but it is an issue that unfortunately turns many moderate women away from self-identifying as feminists. Again, they are the minority of feminists, but they are the ones that get media attention & that people like Jay Leno (who I think is a dumbass, but a lot of people watch him) make fun of.

    On the other hand, I don't think things are as equal as they are going to get. Yes, women are breaking through the glass ceiling in many areas. Yes, men are lowering themselves to many of the activities that many feminists wish women would stop doing -- like developing eating disorders, distorting themselves with plastic surgery to be more physically attractive to the opposite sex, etc. Hell, I would bitch about disgustingly degrading shows like the Bachelor, except that men are just as willing to whore themselves on the Bachelorette. However, despite all of this, there is still a great deal of improvement to be made. Frankly, as long as rape exists, we are not as equal as we should be. As long as I need to be more careful about where I go alone at night than my boyfriend needs to be, we are not as equal as I would like.

     
  11. Sage-Phoenix

    Sage-Phoenix Imagine

    Some women could well take feminisim too far. I'm speaking hypothetically having never met any.

    I would hate to think our society is as equal as it will ever get. There is still so much room for improvement.
    TTFN

    Sage
     
  12. retrofishie

    retrofishie Senior Member

    why do you feel that you have to attack me for stating my opinion.
    my point is that i'm sick of people finding resons to blame every bad thing that happens to them on someone else and not taking responsiblity for themselves.
    how do you see a 'future of relentless ragging against women' from me? incase you missed it in my first post I AM A WOMAN!!! how can you judge my thoughts on one post? when have you ever read any of my other posts?
    why do you think i have to study gender issues or anything else to have an opinion? you havn't studied me and you obviously have a strong opinion on me.
    i never said that all women complain if a man gets a job that they wanted, where did you read that? my whole post was about feminist, that's a group of women.

    i stated at the start of my thread that this post wasn't an attack on anyone and not to think i was talking out of anger, i think that you just read the parts that you can use to start a debat because you missed alot of essential information such as:
    i am a girl
    this post was not out of anger
    at the end i stated that my point applies to other minority groups
    my point was about taking responsibility for yourself.

    i did not come here looking for an argument, to me it sounds like you did.
    I am open to other people's points of view but not when they are attacking mine. I think that you probably have a good idea about what you are talking about but you came off very mean and hurtfull.

     
  13. BoyTheo

    BoyTheo Member

    Thats very true.

    I'm not white, and I've never felt racism against me. I think people who use racism as an excuse are stupid. In fact, the only people to be "racist" to me were black people and that was just a word or two... like I give a ****!!

    On the other hand, I am discriminated against, for being male.

    If I was just out there to whine and get people's attention, I'd complain about racism, because that's what people believe in.

    If I was out there to be honest, and speak the truth, I'd say what is true no matter how hard it is for other people to believe in. And that is what I do.

    I also get discriminated against for:

    * Being logical (most people are threatened/angry when they get logically proven to be wrong even in the most neutral polite and respectful way)
    * Being too nice for my own good
    * Being honest

    Racism??? Bah. I'm insulted that anyone would even suggest it to me. In fact, it makes me realise that feminists KNOW that there is something deeply lacking within them, some deep sense of lack of worth, that they need to pretend that they have been held back by something that in fact pushes them forward.

    I wouldn't want to submit myself to the same damage to myself esteem by claiming racism, but feminists don't have self esteem, which is why they are feminists.
     
  14. retrofishie

    retrofishie Senior Member

    thanx everyone for your replies:)

    boy theo i agree with what you said about lacking esteem but i just want to point out that i don't think it's all feminist, only extreme.

    what is your definition of a feminist?

    i think a feminist is a anyone that realizes that there is an equality in the genders and wants it fixed but there there are some people that are lacking something inside and they take it too far.

    I am not naive and think that men have it great and women are victems, i believe that the 'group' of people that are most discriminated against are middle aged white men, because for a really long time they were the ''opressor'' and now when we are trying to balance the scales it is tipping the wrong way. take the job example, now alot of employers will hire a non-white woman over a white man (if the qualifications are similar) so no one can say that they are discriminating when actually they are because the winning factor was sex, colour or something else. i know that this doesn't happen everywhere and i havn't personally expierienced it but i know that middle age white men have an extremelly hard time handing out resumes and getting calls back.
     
  15. BoyTheo

    BoyTheo Member

    Feminism is like "White Supremacy", but for females. It's inherantly sexist, hence the "Fem" in the name. If it were about equality, the "Fem" would have been removed from the name. "Inism" is more equal the "Feminism"!

    It's not true that white middle aged men are the most discriminated against. While males DO have the highest rates of suicide... (which already goes to show something), black males actually get sexism too but suffer worse from it.

    The "White middle aged" thing is just an acceptable front for sexism against all males. Boys, infants, old men, males of all colors.

    I remember a school teacher telling a whole class of us, while I was only 8, that males are inferior. And then the school system claims it's GIRLS who need their esteem boosted, and wonder why males do worse at school! Jeez. Maybe something to do with their institutionalised anti-male sexism.

    Females tend to get most of the tips in waitering...

    Males were never the oppressor, they also had roles which weren't great. Having to go to a work you don't like to support 3 or more people, and being away from your own kids, and having to be the "protector from all danger" to the wife even if it means losing HIS OWN LIFE for her...

    These things a woman would not like to have to sacrifice for a male, but expected him to do for her... Which was fine, because both males and females used to have things equal, just different sometime ago.

    And things shoudl be equal all over nowadays. But all that has changed, is that females have made things HARDER on males with anti-male hatred in society, without easing any of the restrictions on males (do we have an all-female draft yet??, why are guys expected to win over females with money?) and easier on themselves (jobs, affirmative action!!)

    It's all a big joke. A big sham. A big lie.

     
  16. wiggly

    wiggly Member

    "As long as I need to be more careful about where I go alone at night than my boyfriend needs to be, we are not as equal as I would like. "
    I'm sorry but that is quite ludicrous, a man is vastly more likely to be attacked than a woman.

    W.
     
  17. retrofishie on the whole i agree with what you said in your original post. the only thing is this: some people go out on the guise of being a feminist but are only there to attack to men. i dont call those people feminists and i never will; those people are sexists.

    i can relate to what you're talking about with minority groups. im gay, and ive noticed that a lot of gay people scream "homophobia!" when they are being attacked, but sometimes its not that at all. im aware that first and foremost im who i am before im what i am (if that makes sense).

    however, we need to look at why minority groups are doing this. it's most probably because they're used to seeing this discrimination happen to themselves or peers. discrimination against women is out there, and we need to have feminists around to keep it in check. but we also need to realise that discrimination against any minority group (or majority group as it may be) is out there, and its also wrong.
     
  18. alissamelon

    alissamelon Member

    i think that extreme feminists do go a bit overboard, but that goes the same with any group that is extreme (religion, race, etc). as for the comment about a woman not being hired over a man,i totally agree. many women (or minority races, gays, etc) immedietly jump to the conclusion that that choice was based on their sex,color, etc. when really, its probably not true. and if an employer did pick a man over a women when they were equally qualified, maybe part of the decision was something like, they knew the woman had a young child and may not be as devoted or able to give as much time to the job as the man. i know many women dont only stay home with children now like they used to, but it does still happen, and if the choice were based on that i would completely understand because it does make some sense. by the way, i am a woman also.

    when people spell woman like womyn i find that ridiculously funny because the word woman has nothing to do with man or male or anything. people shouldnt feel the need to remove the 'man' from it. i believe the root of the word is greek or something and means something completely different.
     
  19. missfontella

    missfontella Mama of Da Assassins

    Maybe I am off topic but I have a story to tell. For about a year and a half, I was a truck driver. Completely gung-ho about it and being able to provide for my family. I was hired over the phone by a woman at the main office. When I showed up at my new job, I was the only woman. I never expected it to be a walk in the park (nothing is) so I endured alot. The first day I got there the other drivers placed bets on how long I would last: 7, 30, or 60 days. The first 5 or so times I backed the truck up to the dock, I did so with a nice sized audience. The company's top routeman decided that he thought I was cute. Worse thing ever. He did some pretty offensive things to express his "feelings". When it was clear that I was in no way interested, he did everything he could to get me fired. When I reported his advances, management promised to "talk to him". Long story short, they did not chose me and tried from day one to get me out. They finally did it by lying and nitpicking. There were many incidents that I don't have time to go into. Main point is that you are only protected by law when someone says to you (in front of witnesses) "I am screwing you over because you are a woman". Otherwise you are on your own. It happens all day, everyday. And while there are people who make excuses at every little mishap for attention or sympathy, there are also a whole lot of women like me who wonder what they did to make these people hate them so and try to find 1 solid reason for the treatment they recieved. Then some friend or family member calls it discrimination. You knew it all along but ignored it because you really don't want to believe that people are that cruel.
     
  20. retrofishie

    retrofishie Senior Member

    I understand that this happens, i am tottaly against it, discrimintaion of anysort is unacceptable, i am talking about the people that use it as an excuse so that they don't have to think about themselves, these are the people that cry wolf and ruin it for everyone else. I really support anyone that is a victim of discrimination, i just hate it when people misuse the idea to suit themselves.
     

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