Talking to the mushroom

i heard a voice one time and it was pretty ominous
it said "Don't turn away"
so i didn't move for a while haha

 

it's not just chemicals.
Aside from alakloids you are also ingesting a fungus material, and mycelium- a living being. this being communicates with your nervous system THROUGH the chemical. this is just the key to unlock one facet, one part of the totality of the experience. the biggest part is not the chemical it is your consciousness and your interaction through the ingesting of it, to that other than human person.

there are relationships to be had in our natural world that is full of life and living beings. these beings are constantly in communication with one another on many levels. you can derive information from these other than human persons. its not magical or anything its simply practical. From an animist indigenous perspective its common sense. To say that shamans obtaining information from other than human persons for curing are just under the influence of chemicals presupposes that their knowledge and experience are dumb luck.

take for example the huichol community of San Andres. Using information gained in states of communication with peyote, they have learned a technique of primitive vaccination against smallpox by using a plant called the huizache whos spirit appears in visions. using the advice of this other than human person they learned how to extract liquid from smallpox boils to prick and vaccinate the healthy against the disease.

but clearly it's all just chemicals right? they are just getting fucked up and lucking out on gaining the right information to heal their patients.

keep telling yourself that.

 

Would it still communicate with you if you only ingested the fruit body and not the active chemicals.

Who?

 

I don't have to accept plant spirits teaching me something as an explanation of what is going on when I ingest some chemical substance in it's natural form. There are many experiences that transcend rational thought and normal daily consciousness. Did you ever consider the possibility that these Shamans of which you are always referring to are only using language and symbolism that they know and can metaphorically use to communicate to others their experiences? You seem to ignore the fact that human experience is limited by the language and current knowledge of the experiencer in relating it to others.
I'm not discounting their experiences or the things learned in visions, just the idea that "the mushroom spirit is talking to me". How can you even say that when I eat mushrooms that have been harvested, dried and stored for many weeks are a "living organism"? If that were the case how come I've never been talked to by a carrot spirit? I've eaten those straight out of the ground before, but never a peep out of 'em.

I think it is much more feasible and scientifically sound that these CHEMICAL substances elicit changes in the way we perceive, interpret and process stimuli. With how little we understand about how the nervous system works and what constitutes human consciousness and awareness there is a whole lot of room for other explanations for these phenomena. Including other than human entities communicating.
It is just that you have personally accepted that particular North/South American indigenous peoples paradigm and therefore tend to interpret things based on that bias. That is not necessarily a negative thing, unless it means you are not open to other explanations, then it is a closed minded, limiting paradigm.

It is so amusing to me how little we know and understand about our existence, yet everyone insists that their particular view is the correct one.

As far me, I just don't fucking know, I'm fascinated by it all, and am ever learning, but I never claim that my particular paradigm is "the correct" one at any time and am fully aware that is is an ever changing and evolving one.

If I am going to consider the universe and human existence in it then I take account of ALL possibilities, that includes the scientific explanations for how mushrooms effect us the way they do. I don't just figure "it's the plant spirit" and stop there. Yeah that is a possibility to consider, but it ALL has to work together in order for it to be called a UNIVERSE.

So non-human entities account for a lot of this phenomena?
you just go right on telling yourself that.

 

but that doesn't mean you shouldn't also consider the paradigm that mushrooms and plants do have a spirit. i can tell you for damn sure that salvia has a spirit. part of the scientific method is based on observation. when you have such incredible reactions reproduced in more than one user it means that there might be something going on. our current understanding on matter and conciousness is drastically underaccurate, you can't really make many assumptions about what is going on. but what is true is that some users experience a plant spirit of some drugs and plants, do you really think that is all a concidence?

 

If you gain sufficient altitude all these arbitrary divisions disappear.

 

Not a coincidence, just an affect of the active chemicals.

To me it makes no sense that a "spirit" would retain any human quality's, especially if it was a plant or fungus spirit. If a spirit existed at all it would be a universal spirit. No personality, no knowledge to give, no voice at all. We all share the same life force, what makes you think that when we die our personality somehow becomes attached to part of the universal life force?

 

Hey buddy, how ya doin.
Actually I believe I did say that I was open to that possibility, a couple of times maybe read it a little closer.
As far as telling me that salvia damn sure has a spirit, no you can't. The only thing you can tell me is that YOU have experienced it in a way that leads YOU to believe that.

It could also be that there is no "other spirit" communicating.
Did you ever read about Michael Persinger's work;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Persinger
http://www.shaktitechnology.com/god_helmet.htm

So there is evidence that certain neural events can trigger the sense of "other than me" or "spirit and God" entities.

As far as I'm concerned there is still just way way too much that we DON'T understand about the working of the brain/nervous system to make such assumptive leaps like "plant spirits" and then claim they are definitive.
Maybe these psychedelic substance produce some of the same conditions in the human brain as the "god helmet" and thereby "spirits speak".

No, such events and experiences are not coincidental because we all share the same basic brain and nervous system structure and chemistry. So that is why we also share similar reactions to certain stimuli, whether it is chemically induced or electro-magnetically induced. That in no way confirms or proves that plant spirits exist, just that humans have similar experiences when subjected to similar stimuli.

You will never ever even come close to grasping the whole picture of these events as long as you are so ready to ascribe them to outside forces without considering the possibility that there may be NO outside forces at work here.

Like I said, I don't fucking know what is all at work, and neither does anyone else.
I'm just very open and willing to consider both aspects of the phenomena in question. I'm sure the real answer lies somewhere in between.

My thoughts about this type of experience have been changing due to work like Persinger's mentioned above. I can't just disregard it because it doesn't "fit" with my personal paradigm. It's the paradigm that needs to be re-evaluated, as well as the evidence that would suggest it's not complete.

That is the only thing I'm certain of, that it all has to fit.
If a piece of the puzzle doesn't fit, the picture is incomplete no matter how hard you hit it with a hammer to make it fit.
:cheers2:

 

That's what I try and point to; up there. These "spirits" are so anthropomorphic and in line with traditional human expressions of the supernatural that I simply cannot take them seriously from step 1. I require a redefinition of the universe.

If I were of the opposite persuasion, I would point out that this is probably why I have never been contacted by entities in the DMT "realm" .

 

i guess that my understanding of mystical experiences is not so much based on neurochemistry. there is something to be said for mystical experiences, even if they are caused by neural events. these kinds of events involve the soul, and in some of these experiences you can understand a sort of spirit of your guide (mushrooms, salvia, etc.) can be percieved. isn't that what this thread is about? interacting with the plant essence?

 

Yes, but you can't leave any stone unturned in my opinion. Read the work Persinger has done as well as work from Charles Tart.
They open up new areas of possibility and understanding. If you are not open to that then what have you really learned or gained?

 

Indeed. While I am quite familiar with "ecstatic" states and they are rife with metaphoric commentary, they appear to me with a certain grisly plainness that obliterates any attraction for the "supernatural".
Spooks are spooks whether you are 6 years old or 30, they are equally not real.

 

What's a "soul"?

 

perhaps you here are falling into the very language trap you yourself have pointed out. do carrots not interact with your body and mind? do they not communicate health and sustinance to you? everything we encounter provides for us an expireincial type of communion. but obviously with the power plants, its so much more profound. the uniqueness of carrots are observable in the way we feel, in the way we are fed. towards you smith, i wouldnt argue the existance of plant spirits, (though i do personally subscribe to that type of language,) only trying to articulate the fact that every lifeform has an essence or style that is uniquely its own. as with anything, if we bring conciousness and attention to our encounters, we're likely to observe more and more previously unknown subtleties about the way any uniqueness offers its presence.

as for the rest of you post, i very much agree with the way you practice not knowing. above all im an advocate for that type of world view.

...ramblin for my own sake

 

i think its your own misunderstanding to assume that a person who believes in plant spirits finds them to have human qualities. what a person is able to describe is not the direct truth of their expirience. word is metaphor. how is anyone going to communicate to someone else what kind of conciousness a plant is "speaking" from?

the only kind of imagery that would be accurate would be to say that its not like you think. as a tripper im sure you can appreciate this sort of descriptive style...
...my story may be similar to an expirience that you might have had, only its percieved differently....and its not like you think it is.

 

all i know about the soul is that it seems to be tied directly to conciousness. conciousness, maluable as it is, is capable, of both expantion and contraction. through awarness i can continually take in more and be expanded by it, and learn better my relation with everything in the process. i have no reason to doubt then that the soul is somthing that can ultimatly be considered the one that is all, when we say "all is one" (if only we could expand our conciousness enough). or to say it another way, there is no such thing as individual souls. this is the argument i often hear from your words... that all is one.

but the truth is that i am expiriencing individuality in this reality, at this time, based on the limits of my perspective. and so are you, and i really dont think human beings are even capable of expireincing the full truth of what the soul is. (i dont believe the professed fullness of these acended buddha type characters)

...and so i appreciate what individuality is, because that is somthing i have to come to terms with. because i am isolated within myself (ordinarily anyway, outside of those rare ego death moments)...the fact that it always feels like me inside means that i am alone. but i am constantly encountering others, and i will never know the direct truth of what it feels like to live as them. and so i cant say that we are one.

there are divisions and portions within this whole that is spoken of in the "all is one" philosophy. as human beings we cant deny that either, no matter how comfortable it is believing that all is one.

 

I was being ludicrous about carrots to try to illustrate my point. I am fully well aware of the limitations imposed by language.

I guess if i were to go through all my posts in these type of threads the main thing I feel I have always tried to point out is this.
(This is directed towards no one person in particular.)

Don't be so absolute and dogmatically convinced of the rightness of your own paradigm whatever that may be. It is guaranteed to change drastically as you grow and move through this adventure we call "life".

I always get a chuckle out of those in this forum and elsewhere who will condemn people for things like believing the bible, or some other religion, or believing in a God. Christians really get bashed like that a lot and are accused of being narrow-minded and dogmatic and failing to see the other side so to speak. All the while those doing the bashing are just as dogmatic, narrow-minded, and hold on to belief systems that really have no more or less validity and proof then the one they are bashing. It really is hysterical.
And that applies to all belief systems and also to those who profess to hold none. It is the very natural human trait of ego-centricity that is at work here, nobody is immune to it, including me as I dogmatically put forth the previous paragraph.

I DON'T FUCKING KNOW ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF MY OWN EXPERIENCES AND NEITHER DOES ANYONE ELSE ON THE PLANET.

We may share similar experiences, may come to similar conclusions, and enjoy similar things, but I still have no way of knowing with certainty that when I look at red and you look at red we are both actually perceiving the same experience of red. So please don't come at me and dogmatically state that mushrooms possess a spirit, there is absolutely no way to provide proof they do. Just because others experience what they believe is a mushroom or plant spirit doesn't carry enough weight to convince me. That is why I mentioned Persinger's work, it shows that some of these experiences can be reproduced with nothing more mystical the electro magnetic fields.
Now does that invalidate and make false any concept of other entities communicating through psychedelics, no, but it does raise questions and doubts about them.

I used to be convinced and 100% settled in my own little paradigm that defined the world for me and through which I reacted to the world around me. As I have gotten older, fathered children and watched them grow, I'm not so sure about anything anymore, but in a positive way.

Change is the only guaranteed constant in the universe.
:cheers2:

 

if a huichole indigenous healer told me to do something, for example when i go on pilgrimage to wirikuta in next spring, for me to take his advice as "metaphor" or symbolic would be particularly foolhardy. i would do so at the risk of my life and well being. Thankfully i am not you and have respect for what the shamans relations have revealed, and what they have tested to be accurate and reliable.

it's because a persons experience are going to define their willingness to accept a particular belief. i don't believe that the idea of God is ludicrous, but believing in the bible is not the same thing as believing that plants can bestow healing and legitimate knowledge- which is subject to testing and scrutiny like any science.What works, works. Who cares if you think they got it from a chemical and i think they got if from a plant being.
This is for survival purposes based on a tested body of knowledge. people don't need to believe in the bible to survive. They need to believe in the bible to fulfill a mystical spiritual need. Indiginous healers depend on plants for information to SURVIVE.

you think i am talking about something mystical or spirit. again, im not. you are ignorant and im in a particular position of authority to tell you are wrong. Im talking about practical relationships with the beings that inhabit this planet. In your christian dogmatic peephole that you so precariously view the world through there is no room for such a planet. everything is dead and at the submission of Man. But this is not how the world works as i have come to see it through my experiences.

 

The problem for me is not so much that the terms are not specific. It is rather the interchangeability of terms. So now a soul = consciousness. Well, this changes everything, right? Nobody believes in or doesn't believe in consciousness, if you are reading this post you have consciousness.

What I am trying to flip out of people's minds is this meme of a soul which has the following properties among others:

- is distinct from "consciousness"

- carries with it a tally of actions ala "karma"

- is not empirically verifiable, at all, ever, in any way

- is not composed of matter (or energy?)

- is not bound by the rules governing matter/energy, or any rules of any system we know to be a part of "Reality"

- is "eternal", whatever that means

- is not a fixed constant, but rather is, for lack of a better phrase, "on a journey"

If we can avoid zooming out too far and too high, and focus on examining the premise that some have here that "plant spirits interact with your soul", I think this discussion will be more fruitful. Not that it's not intensly interesting, in fact I have not been posting as much because of how much food for thought this has been. However we are going off topic, and beginning to meld definitions, and beginning to lose track of the question(s): What is a "soul", what "has" a soul, why/how would souls interact-

[and here folks a brief flash of eureka/samadhi engulfed my mind and I realized that I was thinking of "plant souls" and "people souls" as distinct, almost incompatible entities. What is the difference between a plant and a human? Just the english words we use to cleave their imagined seperateness. Plant speaking to you = you you'ing you. /thread]

this is all a great squirt

 

a person is a person. not just humans are beings. this whole world is full of all different types of beings plant, animal, bacterial ect.