Swinging, and personal issues....

That's probably really wise advise, and I appreciate your input.
This is being quite therapeutic for me. It is also curious to see where I am going with it....the dominatrix idea had come into mind for me a tiny bit, just because I like a bit of S&M, and being the sub, but he has no idea what that means and entails and what kind of pleasure could exist in it. So I thought about playing dom to introduce him to it, so he can understand.

I could definately get into it (I train horses, in which these skills are necessary).....and now that I think about it, he acts like I am a goddess when he sees me training... and he bought me this very sexy leather corset.
OMG, I think I have an alternate idea for us to try before diving into other people! (I even have a whip and crop already...LOL!

 

In the typical swinger club, you could do this and nothing more. No activities are mandatory.

I think most Americans have seen too many married women who make no effort in middle age to maintain themselves, and never try anything adventurous or new, agreeing within their own narrow social circles that it shouldn't matter, and then acting surprised when their men have affairs. Obviously, you are not like this.

I doubt that there are many men who wouldn't honestly like to see this.

I think it is natural for all women to quickly become attached to their partners, but the strength of this feeling diminishes as the number of partners increases. It has to, if you think about it logically and rationally. No one can feel a strong emotional bond to 100 people.

It can be wonderful! :love: This is the best thing that I added to my experience base after college.

The STD risk is the main reason why I wouldn't want to be promiscuous right now.

 

Look, whenever you people start talking about objectification my reaction is between complete shut off and hitting the ceiling with frustration. You do not have an audience in me with your objectification-whatever-that-means psychobabble.

So far you haven't mentioned anything whatsoever that draws you to swinging except some general ('I really like sex yadda yadda ya'), which every teenage chick says except they lie or they have no idea how much more than them the people who really like sex actually like it.

I don't even know why you're considering this other than it giving room for your self-therapy.

 

I'm not really into swinging clubs, they sound dirty. Instead my fiancé and I meet random couples from a swinging website. We have yet to do anything with anybody though. Our interest in swinging stems from thoughts that my partner and I have only been with one another, so naturally the thoughts about other women/men have entered our minds. I decided to be honest and upfront about it and my fiancé was pretty darn cool about it too. Most of my male friends with partners often cheat on them and I strive not to do this or get to a point one day where the thought might cross my mind so I had to speak to her. Communication is a great thing in a relationship. If anything the conversation put so much trust back into one another that it no doubt made our relationship stronger instantly.

We believe it is an avenue that we can explore down the future. We are only 28/27 so there is no rush and the age group seems to be 10yrs on average older than us so we aren't rushing anything. Our idea of swinging is same room sex with another couple or we'll probably try the soft swing first which I believe to be sex with your partner while another couple is present doing the same thing, no swapping.

The people we have met, especially couples have very strong relationships together and are nothing like some of the suggested couples posted in this thread.
From my inexperience and brief experience chatting to couples, there are genuine couples where both parties understand the difference between love and sex. Love is what they have together, the sex is a social entertaining event.

 

I always make mention that I'm not looking for people in a negative relationship or people looking for positives outside their negative relationship.

 

That is all he says he wants to do now. My concern is that with time, our intents might change. I know I start to like the idea of expanding that plan...

But that is the thing that is wierd- the french women don't believe a woman SHOULD be trying to do anything to keep her husband! They don't wear make up at this age (40), the most common haircut for women this age is practically shaven head so no time is spent on that. They mostly complain about their men being clingy though, and being their "other child".

Imagine if an american guy went amongst a group of other men and expressed that his wife wants him to do all kinds of stuff he feels uncomfortable with, that he is already going to great lengths to make her happy so she will stay with him... what would they say? They'd berate him for losing his balls, tell him to stand up and tell his wife to shut up!
THAT is the same response I got from the french women! It was scandalous to them that a woman would be worried about "keeping her man" and make EFFORT to please him, when there are tons of men all over the place who would be happy to step in.
(that's going a bit off subject, perhaps, but I found it fascinating!)

That sure seems to be the case. That is what I am worried about. I don't want to become someone who considers people objects to be used. I want to weigh that consequence before I head down that road. Once you start seeing people as objects and no longer see them as having feelings, thoughts, pasts and futures, then what kinds of citizen do you become yourself?
Look at the person in this thread being very insensitive, rude, unkind- taking advantage of my honesty to try to hurt a stranger.... do I want to become someone like that??? I just don't think so.

I am not refering to falling in love with someone exactly, but I don't treat the girl working at the cash register of the grocery store as an object- why would I with a sex partner? Just to defend myself? Their humanity gets sacrificed for my sexual stimulation? I am weighing it, and it seems unbalanced...

I am glad to hear your insights and experiences, and thank you for sharing it with me!

 

Whether you decide to shut off or hit the ceiling, objectification happens though- people become callous, unkind, insensitive, lacking in compassion for their fellow human beings. It is somethign I personally would prefer not to cultivate in myself if possible.

I have been honest that I am not particularly drawn to the swinger lifestyle in the form I have witnessed- sex with strangers, that one finds with an ad, and invites into their home, with no discussion, no getting to know each other.

But I wanted to explore other possibilities- having regular friends a couple plays with and knows, for example- that sounds great to me! Yes I like sex, but I also like people in general as well. I would like to combine these preferences somehow. I was looking for people with varied experiences to shine a light on them.

Well, I exposed that many times already and again just above.
But yes, I think it is a good idea to do some deep soul searching before making big decisions that could have impact on your relationships and personality. It seems irresponsible not to.

 

It's hard to predict what the future might hold. Some people try a new adventure once or twice, and are satisfied with that. Others make it a regular part of their lifestyle. At least those who experiment are making decisions based on personal knowledge and experience.

Yikes! This is not the France that we hear about in the US!

Even when that is what they want? Remember, this is a game! Not like a serious, long term relationship, unless you venture into polyamory.

I think the great potential moral offense is to mislead someone about your intentions. Swingers generally assume that your intentions are not serious.

I don't see it as inevitable that one leads to the other.

VG is a gay man who gets upset whenever someone says anything positive about heterosexuality. It's disgusting to him.

 

The 40/50% of marriages end in divorce thing is something of an urban myth, its never been true for either France or the US. People get this from the crude marriage and divorce rates, usually there are half as many divorces as marriages per year, so people assume that means 1/2 marriages end in divorce, and it gets plastered over the media.

But it doesnt take into account population growth, ageing population, what actually is considered divorce and how itsreported.

The real divorce rate for both countries is somewhere in the teens, 12/13%. There is more variation on demographics based on age,race, education, income and religion. Going by the US figures, far more likely to get divorced if you marry before 20, the divorce rates are much higher for blacks and hispanics, those with only a high school education are more likely to get married in the first place than anyone else, and yes the divorce rate does go up the higher the income bracket

The difference between the crude divorce rate between France and US is only around 7%, one you balance out those demographics, ther may be no difference at all

So if french women are more, oh no dont change yourself for a man, American woman supposedly, oh no do stuff to please him (although I'm pretty sure almost every american male here would scoff at that)....doesnt really seem to make much difference in how many of them stay married for however long.

I didnt source anything, cos well dont take my word for it, its all there on those governments websites

 

I didn't say anything about divorce rates, I am not sure how that figures in.

I often find that the french and american culture, though in appearence not that different (they don't live in huts and ride elephants of anything) is often in complete opposition to each other in terms of cultural value and morals.

For example, a common saying is "One must not listen to themself."
That is the opposite of what we say, which is more along the lines of "Only listen to yourself, do not follow the crowd."
Here, peer pressure is a POSITIVE force- following the crowd is correct and will keep you on the right path- following your own egotistical ideas will lead you into trouble. Collectivism vs. Individualism... that is just an example to illustrate how totally opposing they can be in ideas.

It may be the men making more effort to adapt to the females, or the females making more effort to adapt to the males, but that in no way indicates there should be a difference in divorce rates.

Why would there be? There could be just as many females leaving their husbands out of sexual boredom here as there males leaving their spouses for the same reason there! I personally know many couples in which the woman had affairs until she finally left her husband. In each of those cases, the husband was loyal, devoted and trying very hard to make her happy, but failed. (which seems rather sad to me.)

I remember in the first year here, watching a documentary in which teens were interviewed and asked what they wanted for their future, and all the boys said they wanted to marry, and have children, and all the girls said they never wanted to marry, they wanted a career, and to have fun. The girls boasted about their sexual experience, while the boys got shy about such questions. It just seemed to me like that was backwards from what you see in my country- where girls dream of marriage, babies, and hesitate to admit their sexual experience!

It is going off subject a bit, but cultural differences like that can be really interesting to study. We tend to assume that the ideas we grew up with are universal truths- when in fact, they are often just cultural conditioning!

editted to add- in speaking of that docu I saw, I was refering only to the responses of the heterosexual kids, of course there were homosexual kids who did not have the same desires.
In this topic, where I am refering to the majority and the culturally encouraged values, I didn't include the gay and lesbian responses. I do not wish to offend, but they were not as relevant in this context, that's all.

 

It just seemed important to me to examine all my deepest motives and bring to the surface any subconscious baggage that could influence my experiences and color my judgement.

I know, I hear the thigns about women with hairy armpits (and yet here, women all have their entire body waxed) and that they have bad personal hygene. I wonder if some fo those ideas weren't born during the second WW, when people had no running water and lived in a blown up war zone?

The women here are classy, thin, hairless, do not wear much make up (if at all) and tend to abhor the idea of walking outside in casual sport clothes.
They don't seek to please others, though they take their responsibilities very seriously (to family and community).

Of course, there has to be exceptions, but that is a generalization, the majority, in a culture that values conformity.

I guess that is a valid question. I was thinking of something in between those two choices. Like asking the person their name, maybe chatting a few minutes first? That doesn't engage in a long term relationship; it is just - regular respectfulness, like you'd offer anyone in any other context.
I don't know. I am confused about why no one seems to see any grey area and assumes I am talking about falling in love, or having a serious relationship, or being called "fresh meat" (literally what I was called) with no name. If you play tennis with someone, you ask their name, shake their hand first, but you don't need to love them.

That is what I wanted to ask, and appreciate you giving your view on it.

Perhaps I was just a bit shocked at first, overwhelmed. The people Seem to be very aggressive to me, but that might just be because I am new to this and need time to get used to it.

 

I've heard that mostly about German women.

That's the Old South.

Okay, I don't see a problem there.

 

Boo-hoo to the first paragraph. It seems to happen in proportion to how tiny one's mind is. Good luck to the second. Can't help you there.

 

If you do that thing where someone says something you dont agree with then make out they are evil, mean, there must be something wrong with them yada yada yada, you arent going to change the way they think, you are at most going to just change what they say to you. And if thats the way its been in real life, most of your life, you never really get to hear what they really think.

Suicide is one of those areas where as soon as its mentioned everyone goes quiet and says what they think they are supposed to say for the most part

The point I was trying to make with Mick Jaggers girlfriend was that no one knows just how they were to each outside the public eye, they might have been mean, cold very vindictive to each other, which is what does happen a lot of the time once people have spent too much time together

Put it down to depression, and people will just pidgeon hole it as something wrong with her, she was broken. People will make out they dont pidgeon hole mental disorders, but they all do.

But if it was just one moment of madness, one night of a few too many gin and tonics, a few too many xanax, a jealous rage, I'll show him, he'll be sorry type thing. It comes off sounding more selfish. but more romantic in a messed up way, love drove her too it, she couldnt bare to be without him.

Label it as depression and it comes of sounding sadder, more depressing itself. what a waste, something that was wrong in her head and something no one could fix, a helpless feeling

But Label it as love gone wrong, still a nasty thing, but a little more Shakespearian, passion in a messed up way, but still some kind of purpose.

You mentioned your mother took her own life, ohh thats suicide, we arent supposed to talk about it, dont say anything that may upset you. And I dont know the details, but is anyone even sure she actually intended to take her own life as opposed to forcing Romeo to come meet her in the hospital. But which is the better way to think about it, that it was just depression, some faceless monster, just a whole lot of empty feelings, or she was Juliet that finally found out Romeo wasnt really Romeo, as i said romantic in a messed up way, but at least some purpose to it all, crazy in love

Your biological father sounds like one of those guys at that age running around sticking it wherever, never grew out of the man child phase. Do you really want to know the truth about him anyway? As much of a tool he was at the time, no matter how much you want to rag on men. It would have been your mother that looked like the villian at the time, she left him for for her professor, who had more money to him than your father, most people on the outside not seeing all the stupid shit she had to put up with your father, and the more sleezy and ugly this professor was the more of a villian she would have seemed

You say your father is christian and a businessman, I assume you were talking about the bio father there, whose cut off contact with you. Do you really want to know the truth anyway?...IF that truth is that he hasnt changed, still only cares about where he sticks it, and has just worked out that if he goes around telling people he is christian, then they are for the most part going to think oh, he's christian so he cant be bi, still chasing twinks, or only bothers with hookers, or a string of 20yr old girls putting themselves through college or whatever it is; that no one else ever really sees anyway

Then there's the part where you were left to fend for yourself and siblings as early as 9, you still turned out ok, better than most if you are talking about you and your husband being in a high tax bracket...no doubt with most your own age now pissy at you because you have more money than them, botox and gym membership...so no doubt most women your age pissy at you cos you still have a figure

But back to being left to fend for yourself at 9, with by the sound of it every adult around you acting like a child. Stepping in as mum earlier for your siblings, learning stuff earlier you normally wouldnt have until later, thus getting a head start on everyone else. Shitty deal and reasons to be resentful to certain adults.....but then comes the question of well how really relevant is parenting? If at all. Male or female, what actually causes them to get well into adulthood, still expect everyone to do everything for them, complain the government doesnt do everything for them and never really get anywhere...if not because they've spent too long having the good natured parents do everything for them. Why are there so many with stories like yours that are in charge of everything.

Thats really that magic key to success isnt it, learning earlier than everyone to do shit yourself, sucked at 9yrs old, but part of why you are where you are now

 

You don't see a bit of irony in that statement of yours?
That people get insensitive and inconsiderate towards others in proportion to how tiny one's mind is? You just put yourself down there.

You have the right to your opinion, I would disagree though. I think sometimes people act in ways that are inconsiderate of others not because they have a small mind, but because they have put up defense systems in their psyche to protect themselves (a perfectly valid concern) and those same defenses have the "side effect" of making them be offensive to others without being aware they are.

Yeah, psychobabble... LOL... it would be easier to judge some people as jerks and be done with it. But it wouldn't be honest. And it would n't help me figure out how to make choices which form my own personality in ways I would prefer.

 

Vanilla Gorilla, I never made ANYONE out to be evil, or said there is anythign wrong with anyone. That was what you tried to say from the moment I made my first post and it had nothing to do with me. I don't live in a world where people are all hating each other.

I also do not have ANY desire to CHANGE anyone!!!
My only desire is to make the choice for my life which correspond to my preferences and motivations.

-That entails examining deeply my motivations and desires, both conscious and subconscious, to know what they are.

-That entails observing and listening to the world around me, others, and events, to gather information on the various results and effects one can expect from various types of choices.

-Once I have gathered knowledge about the possibilities ahead of me, I choose my path, take full responsibility for it, can feel free to "let go" or enjoy myself because the work of setting up the perimeters is done, and whatever shall come of it (including possible effects I didn't foresee, for we cannot control everything and there is always unknowns) I shall face fully.

That is what I have been doing. There is nothing for me in the act of judging anyone evil, nor in changing their mind or choices. Even those who choose ways of being or doing that I don't want to be or do serve as examples for me to observe and learn from.

There is a lot there for me to respond to, a lot of it I just don’t relate to.
I do not agree that people get vindictive and mean to each other with time- I witnessed that it can be the opposite. My real parents were married for 8 years, and they were terrible to each other, we spent lots of time in the emergency room, all of us.

Her second marriage, they only became better with each other in time. The same with my father who remarried and they are a very close knit and happy couple. My husband and I have only gotten closer with the years and treat each other better… so sure, it might happen that relationships disentigrate with time, but it is not the rule.

I think part of what has nurtured our relationship is being responsible and considerate and taking time to think, and listen, before acting. Especially when you come from different languages and cultures- you cannot jump to conclusions or trust your reactions because most of the time it is a misunderstanding! ☺

I don’t know who the man is that you describe as my father. For me, he was an 18 year old boy, with an 18 year old girl, suddenly parents and with great responsibility on their shoulders. They both came from highly dysfunctional households, and all they could think was that to avoid continuing that theme, they had to live the opposite to all the ways their own parents did things. They were trying to do that.
That is what black and white polarized thinking leads to.

My dad wanted security most of all, a woman who was strong and would provide him with a safe home and love. He followed my moms lead. I mentioned he was a Christian businessman and you seem to have taken that to assume things about my own values. I am rather put off by the Christian thing- I do not find that an admirable choice. Nor do I find his career choice to be admirable, as it lacks in passion, creativity, and … anything else that might make it even the slight bit enjoyable! But that’s just me, I guess.

But he has what he has always wanted- security. He has put limits around himself, he has a wife that helps him keep his bodies urges within a certain control. Apparently he got close to an affair once and she went bolistic on his ass, which kept him in check ever after. We americans tend to assume men want freedom, women want security. Sometimes men want security too, sometimes men find that their own appetites are a threat to that need for security and WANT to rein in it- exactly as some women do.

(we have contact now, by the way. Funny how if you move to Europe, suddenly every relative you never knew you had wants to keep in touch and send you their kids for the summer).

My dad and mom and their spouses are all just regular people- not an evil one amongst them. And we are all just doing the best we can, feeling our way as we go, and learning as we do. I think you can understand that with the background I have, I cannot just lean on my automatic reactions in life- if I did, I would probably be a welfare mother with five kids by different fathers, with a beer belly and some major drug problems.

I have to forge myself, stop think and re-program my self, to break out of the faulty initial programming I got.

Thanks, VG, for being sincere and open with me- even if we disagree on some points, I appreciate that.
The last two days, my husband has been on a business trip, so I used the time to reflect and evaluate things. He wrote me loving me loving text messages, about erotic dreams he had of me, and by the time he got home last night, I was dressed in my hottest thigh high boots and crotchless underwear, and feeling absolutely DONE with thinking. I had uncovered my deeper worries and fears, put down my baggage and laid my perimeters.
Now I am ready to have fun. Thanks for helping me sort out my mind.

ETA- I am obviously not getting where you are coming from, as the subject of evil, bad, blame.... and some way in which such ideas pertain to my father, repeatedly come up in your posts, and I don't get them. All I can say is, I don't believe in good and evil; I do not believe anything in this world has inherent value. I do not believe there is a "right" and "wrong" in any objective fashion. I believe all is relative in this reality, and we apply meaning and value ourselves, according to the experience we choose to create for ourselves.

Trying to guess where this perception of moral judgement upon my father came from, putting it together with your mention of hating gays, perhaps you misunderstood me initially because I mentioned my fathers negative experience in homosexuality? As if I think he did something wrong or bad??? What I think is that he may have dived too deeply, or too quickly, into something, and that ended up causing him pain.

Just like the people I meet who have no experience with horses and decide one day they are going to buy a young stallion and just jump on and have a great time galloping.
That is not a bad thing to do in itself. But if you have no idea what you are doing, no preparation, no training, no experience, it is a bad thing for YOU to do. If you sat on a rental horse one day on a trail ride, and liked it, that does not indicate that you should go and buy a young stallion. You will end up in the hospital, or the morgue.


Can you see what I mean by bringing up that experience of my fathers? (which my mom talked him into trying). The subject was getting into something over your head.

It was not to say he did something 'bad" as in evil- but he made a choice that was wrong FOR HIM , at that time. What do I base my conclusion on? Seeing him crying and hurting and saying it made him unhappy.

If he'd said it was a thrill and did him good, that would mean it was a good choice. Does that straighten out anything?
If not, perhaps it isn't possible, we may just be on very different wavelengths. I wish you well anyway.

 

Oh and VG I have no taboos about talking of suicide- it happens, it is a part of life, and the factors that lead to it may be varied and in all sorts of combinations. My mothers suicide was no silly whim- she prepared for a period of time, then went up high in the wilderness where help could not get to her, and she told no one of her intent.

I have found that having your most basic foundations of belief about the world suddenly swept out from under your feet can be an extremely dangerous experience,. I think some belief systems are destructive and unhealthy.But I never meant to say anyone else is responsible for her choice- only that some of the things she believed seem to have been not beneficial and increased her unhappiness.

 

You've added this yourself as is the wont of each and every hopeless case of sexual envy.

Have fun with what you can, spice girl.

 

You wrote:

"Boo-hoo to the first paragraph. It seems to happen in proportion to how tiny one's mind is"

The first paragraph you refered to says this:

"objectification happens- people become callous, unkind, insensitive, lacking in compassion for their fellow human beings"

So, "it" refers to becoming callous, insensitive, lacking in compassion- I did not add that.
(I had carefully specified what I meant by "objectification" in case it was being misunderstood.)


I didn't have to add anything, and that doesn't really have much to do with "sexual envy".

People develop defense mechanisms which cause insensitivity in all sorts of contexts and situations.
To protect oneself from emotional attachment during sex is only one amongst many.

Another activity that tends to encourage cultivation of insensitivity is internet forum discussions! That doesn't mean it is inevitable- with some conscious effort and awareness and certain "rules" for oneself to protect integrity, it can be avoided, for those interested in doing so.



Yes, i understand that you probably do not have any tips for taking part in swinging without developing such a protective mechanism, you have made it clear that is not an interest of yours.
Some others still might.
There is another poster here that seems to have been able to and has given me some valuable tools for that.

 

Wrong. It refers to what you call objectification. Which, ironically, has no material meaning. You then go on to associate it with insensitivity precisely to avoid defining it. Much like a scientist who tailors the evidence to fit his hypothesis.

The poster you cite, if I am guessing right, shares your presumptions. As do most swingers I've gotten in touch with. You seem to be in your element.