Swinging, and personal issues....

Hi, I'm new to the forum. I'm looking for some discussion and perhaps some insight that could help me a bit.

I'm a woman in her forties, happily married for the last 23 years, kids all grown and left home, and my husband and I have decided to try swinging- or as it is called here, Libertinism (we live in France).

It was my husband who proposed it, and we talked for a long time about it, and have been to two clubs. We haven't done anything wild, and have not had sex with anyone else, but I find the issues that arise in me could either be a huge obstacle, or this could be a chance to overcome them.

In talking to others, one finds often that women have issues with the idea at first- and yet I always hear it to be pretty much the same- they grew up with sexual taboos, especially concerning female sexuality, (often in religious upbringing); they did not believe women had sexual urges and drives, or that sex was only for "making babies", and that a woman who enjoys sex is a whore.

Now, my problem is somewhat different. I did not grow up in a religious household. I grew up in So. Calif. at the end of the 60's and the the 70's....my parents were young and hip for their time- experimenting with drugs, rock and roll and free love. They were engaging in all sorts of sexual practice, had lovers of both sexes, and before I was eight years old I had watched most possible sexual combinations and acts possible.

Eventually their marriage fell apart, but not until after years of mess- of one moving out, then the other.. of fighting and suicide attempts... eventually my mother fell in love with one of her lovers (also in an open marriage) and left my father. Father disappeared then, after refusing my moms request that he keep the children. We had to live with my mothers anger at having her life limited by motherhood, especially considering her lover did not want us either. So she took off also and left us alone.

I saw so much pain caused by sexual energy being used as recreation! My father began to think he might be gay at one moment, as they had incorporated another man into their relations for a while... so he moved out to live with a gay couple and try out the lifestyle. He came back traumatized and sure he was not gay. But it was a terrible experience for him (he felt he had been practically raped day after day, I was six and listened to him describe it, crying).

My mother continued to believe that the only way a woman could get a man to love her and keep his love was through constant effort to excite him sexually. She was putting an enormous amount of energy into that, all the time and often suffering because of it- fearing her lover would leave her if she gained a pound, or didn't have a new sexual treat to surprise him with each week.

She killed herself eventually, only days after finding out that despite all her efforts, he had been having affairs after they married.

So my upbringing was seeing that sexual freedom can destroy you. You cna get carried away, you can caught up in a spiral of ever mounting search for pleasure, much like drugs, that lead you into practices eventually dangerous (they got lots fo diseases too, including herpes). The demands of a man can NEVER be completely fulfilled- he will always want more and different excitement- a woman cannot keep her man based upon feeding that.

My big revelation was that a man can love a woman for things other than the sexual fulfilment he gets from her. It took me years to percieve and accept that, and finally feel secure in our relationship.

I am afraid of falling into the same sorts of traps my parents did.

Is there anyone out there that shared experiences similar? I feel like no one understands and I would like to overcome my fears.... but I need some insight, perhaps others anecdotes, what they found to help, or to make things worse.

I'm throwing this out there like a bottle in the ocean, please, no guys saying "let's skype sex and you'll get over it, k?" That is not what I need.

 

I have no personal experience of swinging...but if I may say so, your parents' problems seem to have gone way beyond sexual freedom. Why would you link those issues to sex rather than drugs?

Edit: Even drugs do not seem to explain them.

 

Her true motives are the opposite of what she is making out, try convince the rest of the world not to want sex and that will somehow translate to her hubby not dumping her

What a complete load of shit. And this is what most of them are really like, and it wont just be directed at gay guys, pretty much any younger female, any female with a pulse especially the ones that arent married. Every little stupid trick in the book, except of course putting any effort into keeping their hubby happy in the bedroom

 

those clubs disgust me...sharing my wife would absolutely disgust me

they aren't ''issues''...they are choices

 

I saw people in college get caught up in this mindset. It has to end somewhere, hopefully before somebody has to learn some hard lessons. I've played this game myself, and enjoyed it.

I really can't imagine anybody trying to combine this approach with marriage and children. No wonder your parents had problems!

That's sexual maturity. The second level of sex.

The third level is to combine the first two in a way that isn't destructive. It can't be done until you master the second level.

Has your husband mastered the second level yet? Does he understand it clearly? That is the key question. I have no doubt that you could handle third level adventures.

 

Their problems most certainly have deeper roots, both sexual experimentation and drugs were influential in the dramas they created. I don't do any drugs for that reason also ( though pot was encouraged).
After their divorce, and they each started new lives, they both became "normal" people- he is now a christian businessman, she became a psychologist (ironically enough).My stepfather is a psychoanalyst, and he proclaims that those years of open marriage were a mistake and that it "doesn't work".

I am not sure such a judgement could be made- what they did was not together, they had separate affairs, also their relationship did not have time first to construct a solid base.

But I suspect delving into such activities might be a risk of exerbating whatever problems one might have.It might stir them up to higher levels.

Is that a needless concern?

It is not the only one, obviously. I worry about a tendancy to consider people as objects with time- depersonalisation and insensitivity, developing.
(I think the poster a few responses down confirms and reinforces that one!)

 

it is a concern you should heed.....

I don't care how many women think their man is ''sexually mature''.....

imo they bring there wives to these clubs to pass them around because they wanna bang other women but don't want to lose half their shit getting caught

imo the majority of spouses that get dragged into the swinger lifestyle are a bunch of fish being lied to

there is only a tint tiny tiny portion that actually have swinger mentality without jealousy and other issues....also imo

 

Errrrr, so they had an open marriage, both had seperate affairs, but then she killed herself once she found out they were having seperate affairs...and then she married a psychoanalyst, or killed herself after marrying the psychoanalyst, but its still the first husbands fault.

Is any of this true, have you made the whole thing up?

 

Oooh kaaay....
Looks like the subject stirs up some issues of your own too. That's comprehensible, we all have 'em! Or perhaps you have some form of writers Tourette, what do I know?

I will make an attempt to respond maturely and perhaps you can remember I am a human being, and calm down. If not I'll just ignore you and leave you to your rants.

LOL- I suspect it would be quite difficult to convince the world to not want sex!! I like sex myself, and I know no one could convince me otherwise (and certainly not a stranger on the internet!). Good trolling though- you correctly assumed I have some issues with fear of abandonment, considering my background, and pushed those buttons like an experienced troll.

But my husband claims he has no intention of leaving me, and wants to put no pressure on me to try this with him.

No it is true. You are mistaken. You also have apparently missed the point.

The point being- we can get caught up in moments of excitement, and end up in positions we don't enjoy, even if we were consenting at the beginning.


I have nothing against gays (nor single women, WTF is the association there?) In fact before marrying my husband, I was engaged to a bisexual man, and in talking about this swinging thing, I told him about my own fantasy of having another man behind him, as he also penetrates me. (you can't see stuff like that young and not have it leave impressions upon the mind, I guess.) But he does not want to have homosexual encounters- that is out for him, he says. But what if, in moments of excitement, getting carried away, and knowing my own excitement, he ends up doing it.... that could have a profound effect upon his psyche later. He could end up feeling traumatized.

I sometimes wonder if my father cutting off communication with me and my siblings didn't have a bit to do with the fact that I knew all these details of experiences he was ashamed of, and wanted to forget- seeing me reminded him of that period of life?
If my husband has some negative experiences, and has a similar association with me and those moments, could it hurt our relationship?

I like some soft S&M- the idea confuses him... do we open up that can of worms then?

Here clubs have "Gang bang" evenings.. I wonder how many women thought the idea sounded good in theory and fantasy, but in the middle of it, realized reality is not quite the same and it freaks them out?

I have much more experience than him sexually, and have introduced him to all kinds of play throughout the years, but he has never been the one asking at those times. It was all my proposition (following along my mothers belief that women had to surprise constantly with sex).

But in swinging, we enter different territory. I have had a threesome in the past, it was cool- but I was not in a committed a relationship with either.
My worry is what it will do to our relationship? He is not sure how he will feel about seeing me have sex with another man.

...I am still not sure what the association is between gays and single women, maybe you can explain that one?

 

I certainly respect your feelings on that. If they are gut reactions though, linked to past experiences, I consider them issues- because they were not rationally analyzed and decided upon for specific logical reasons.

 

1) She was married to my father, they were doing the free love hippy thing- having group sex, having separate lovers on the side, etc.

2) Eventually she fell in love with one of her lovers (another man in a open marriage like herself, psychoanalyst) and left my father.

3) She dated this man for years, while going to school, and he left his wife for her- they decided to form a monogomous couple, and marry.

4) She found out many years later that while they were married and she was pregnant, he was sleeping with other women secretly.

I have no idea where you got the "first husband fault" thing.

I think explanation (not into "fault" crap) lies in her issues concerning sex, and the obligation to constantly search further, and deeper to "win" a man through sex. The belief that using sex will win some sort of addiction out of a man that will make him stay with her. (sound familiar to you, I am guessing?)

The fact that all her effort didn't work was a huge blow to her.

 

I am not sure I understand your concept of the second level- I might need some more clarification?

My husband is french, so his world view and values are very different from mine. In France, they have less hang ups about sex, and nudity, and women have a totally different place in value.

Women have more power here, and are considered the "head of the household"... which might not mean much to us americans at first, until we understand that for the french, the home is more important than the work, than the career, the place one holds in the community or society.

It is a maternal culture... and that is why breasts can be bare in public) they are not considered genitals, they are a symbol of maternal power.

My husband is like most french men- he feels dependant upon his wife.
It is hard to explain, but it is like the mirror image of our female issues in the US- men feel they must continually work to seduce their woman, and if she leaves for another, it is their fault, they didn't try hard enough.

We make a strange couple that way, both if us working so hard to re-seduce the other, now that I think about it.

But the dependancy issues are formed in our culture- in ours where females do not get paid as much as men, and the state give less support to single women, and the french, in which boys never learn to cook, wash clothes, etc. living with their mom until they marry- they need a woman in very practical ways then. They don't dare insist on anything their women don't want, and the idea of "wife swapping" does not come up here.

It's all backasswards in those ways.

 

I don't know, if it is the same here.... In the clubs, it is a very female dominated millieu.

The most common practice I've seen is women getting it on with other women, while both husbands watch.

I imagine jealousy must come up for many people though. I watched a video by a french "sexologist" on the subject and she said the most common problem she has observed with couples in which the experience had detrimental effects was that the woman was hesitant at first, but ended up liking it MORE than the husband, and HE ends up feeling jealous and hurt!

 

I was making reference to the quote from your first post, about the time when you first started feeling secure in your relationship. That was the second level for you. If your husband doesn't understand that in the same way that you do, there lies the potential for a problem. If his thinking is still at the first level, where everything about sex is still a competition, then I wouldn't trust him in a swinger relationship or open relationship. Why? Because women can't compete forever with girls half their age, physically. Sooner or later, the young girls always win.

American women have more power than we sometimes think, or will admit to in public. That's especially true in the South, where nothing is ever what it appears to be.

A moderate amount of effort of that kind is very good.

 

Okay, thank you so much for your effort with me- I really appreciate it.
When I started to feel secure in my relationship (not that long actually, perhaps 7 years ago) was the moment I really knew I did not need to be spending all my time trying to so hard to be sexy and working on it. I just deleted the summary of operations and things I have done to try to keep his interest, it is ridiculous. I never needed to do all that.

Part of the reason he says this club thing turns him on is being able to show me off, and touch me in front of other men. The outfits I wear in our bedroom he wants others to see me in.

So...I guess, in the terms you propose, as in lack of competition, no, maybe not. He's very materialistic, collects rare cars too and loves to show those off (but won't let anyone else touch them).

So that is probably a very relevant question for me to consider, and I appreciate your aid in raising it.
Though the worship of youth is not such a big thing here in France. There too, older women are considered better than younger. For the same reasons we americans like to think older men are better- they exude power, authority, and confidence (and usually, money as well) which is a turn on.

That is what they say abotu the south, though I have no direct experience! But it always sounded like that is illegitamate power- like the unacknowledged power to manipulate in subtle ways, instead of a cultural value and protection. It's sort of funny, I tried to write about this on a fench forum, but writing in french takes me so long, and I don't feel I can express myself sincerely with it. But the reactions of the french women were so different!!

There, I got blasted for even considering doing anything I didn't have a desire to! I was called names, and sneared at for considering "sacrifice" or "effort" for a man. These were active Libertines! (which I thought I'd find here, experienced swingers, but ti doesn't seem to be the case). Their automatic assumption was that I am crazy for considering changing myself or my urges, for a mere man.

Here, amongst the americans, I am getting the opposite- bashed for not making enough effort, and told a woman should be sacrificing in order to please her man in bed.

It is quite amazing!

But let me assure you- I have the silicone, and the botox, and do the filler regularly, as well as the lazer hair removal, daily gym work out and equitation, the armoir full of sexy lingerie, the extensive repertoire of blowjob technique and even an anus that has given itself to this effort (one of those things I forced upon myself with him, eventually learned to like, while he realized the reality is a lot yuckier than he'd imagined...).

But I guess we really have trouble seeing outside the cultural view we are used to!

 

Have you ever read Dear Prudence? A while back, a man wrote in saying he convinced his wife to participate in a wife swap. The man in the other couple was fat (unattractive according to hubby) and the woman was beautiful. However, when they were having sex, the fat man was well endowed and his wife LOVED it. He didn't enjoy having sex with the man's wife. He's now jealous and can't forgive his wife, though HE was the one who wanted her to sleep with another man.

Can your husband handle seeing you with a sexy man and enjoying it? Can you enjoy seeing your hubby with a sexy woman and enjoying it? For me (and my hubby), the answer is NO. I would (Fill in a VERY violent action) if I caught spouse with someone else. We both feel that way. We are strictly monogamous and that works for us. We've been together nearly a decade. I don't think I would be into swinging later in life. Just not for me. The potential consequences aren't worth it to me.

WHY does he want to try swinging? For me it seems that it's an excuse to sleep with other people.

 

Your questions are relevent and thought provoking- thanks.

Um, I asked him how he'd feel if I wanted to have sex with another man, he said it would depend upon who it was, how they looked like. It would have to be someone very good looking, with a nice body, or else he would not "approve". If I had sex with an unattractive man, it would say something negative about his wife- as if she is not valuable. That is somewhat insulting to him, to have a wife not desirable to attractive men.

He proposed it initially saying he'd like to see me engage in sex with another woman. My first thought was- "hoping eventually to be included...?"
talking more, I am not sure that it is the aim for him. Something about seeing me in a dominating position over others seems to turn him on.
-That is what I have trouble with. I can maybe get into the idea of having sex with a woman, but I see it as something intimate, if I really liked her.
maybe.
But this swinger thing.. it is like impersonal? People call in a single female who is willing, and use her. My words seem harsh? Or perhaps it is different because she is desiring to be used? I don't want to use a woman for sexual fulfilment, like an object. I don't want to do it in order to turn on the observing men.

Perhaps alone, I'd like to experience making love to a woman- with full respect and care for her as a human!

Here we end up in the same place in terms of men- I'd like to have sex with other men if he is willing- but I want to know a bit about them, I want to care about them. I have a vibrator, it doesn't interest me much. The whole meaningless sex thing doesn't turn me on. To enjoy it, I'd have to add meaning, and then we enter the risks of loving others, and the dangers my parents faced, like my mom falling in love with one of her lovers.

I don't know exactly why this question arose now. I suspect it is partly because we recently entered a totally different tax bracket. We kind of became rich, in some peoples terms. I think that has something to do with it. It is wound up in power, and the ability to channel and harness it.
I think I'm going to watch "Eyes Wide Shut" again.
I also keep hearing Katy Perry's "Dark Horse" in my head lately, which all points to fears of being able to handle sexual energy.

 

No, that doesnt make a whole lot of sense

So suicide attempts/threats when she was back with your father...along the lines of if you ever leave me I'll kill myself type thing perhaps. If your dad split, and your mother took off also, who did you grow up with then?

So 'her lover did not want us either.' are you talking about this stepdad, the same guy you are listening to telling you their open marriage was a mistake? An a psychoanalyst, a supossed professional - If so, he sounds like a big douche, trying to act high and mighty about your father, but then he's like, eh just want to bang your mother and doesnt give a shit about the kids


This L Wren Scott thing, Mick Jaggers girlfriend, lots of talk on the web about her having it all, why would she do this. Now that she's gone everyone is only going to say nice things about her, and Mick with the cliched speil about being devastated......but what kind of things really happened behind the scenes. Her business was in trouble, asked Mick for money, but even though he's worth over a billion, wasnt going to give her a cent and/or she had already threatened suicide many times before, everytime he went on tour, away from home and the associated casual companionship of younger single women. He'd heard those threats before, didnt take them seriously, and at the height of one crazy jealous rage she did something really stupid, and it may not have had anything to do with depression or her childhood. In their final years together they may have been really mean, cold and nasty to each other

 

Seems as though he wants you to be a dominatrix. Only you know if this is for you.

I agree with you, I would only have sex with someone I cared for, otherwise it's using them. Maybe it's just a fantasy.

There was another poster on this forum within the last day or so that is in a threesome. They are in their 20s and she and fiancee are in a threesome with his best friend. Now she's developing feelings for the best friend. You and hubby need to sit down and discuss all of the repercussions of having someone else involved with you. STDs, pregnancy, emotions (falling in love, jealousy etc.)

Honestly, I wouldn't try the swinging thing, but that's just me. I think it works for some but not for most. I tend to see more posts regarding people with problems because of adding another partner than praise for that lifestyle. Then again, most people only post their problems, not their "successful" relationships.

Either way, you need to talk about the repercussions and how you will deal with them.

 

I guess you'll have to specify just what is not making sense for you.

No, I don't remember that being the issue exactly. But then I was very young and the attempts were done right in front of me, which made me so upset I might not have paid attention to the words said. The impressions I had was that she was very depressed, and in my young head, the lack of structure, limits, and security to all of our lives was a major influence in that.

My parents divorced. (Mom left dad, who was heartbroken). Dad took off for another part of the country. Then mom moved in with her boyfriend, and left me, my retarded little sister, and little brother in a state subsidized apartment. I took care of us from age 9 until 15- when she finally got her boyfriend to marry her and to accept us coming to live with them.

Yes, my stepfather is the psychoanalyst and professor of Philosophy.
He said NOTHING about my father (where do you get this???)
As I wrote, he had an open marriage at the time he met my mom. He said his experience was a failure- that his fantasies of living like Sartre and Simone DeBeauvoir, did not work as expected. He now feels open marriage is not a good idea. People get hurt. It destroyed his marriage, it hurt his ex.

My mother also had said that she walked away from her experience thinking it was a mistake. I am not sure what your repeated things about my dad and "fault" are all about- my dad was hurt deeply. The whole open marriage thing was my moms idea as part of her effort to be a good wife constantly searching to make it more kinky each day. Everyone was hurt- that was my whole point! It was sad for everyone involved! That is why they both came to the conclusion, based on their past experiences, that open marriage is not good.

They have the right to their opinion, and their judgement is certainly valid in terms of their own needs. Like I said also, I am not sure that could be applied to all people who try open marriage, or similar lifestyles- in particular, I wonder if the setting up of limits and "rules" between a couple might provide that "structure" to protect the relationship.

Call me silly if you want, but often when I am considering a choice, I go looking for people who made the possible choices and listen to their impressions, experiences and conclusions. That is why I listened to theirs, that is why I went looking for a forum which might have others who have tried different sorts of lifestyles!


I don't know anything at all about Mick Jaggers girlfriend and the events you refer to, so cannot comment upon that.
My mothers suicide was not a simple thing all wrapped up in one incident. There is more to the whole thing, and besides, since she had made so many failed attempts in the past, (not empty threats like it seems you are talking about) the seed for such an act was obviously already there way before that event. But again, the same thing comes up- could limits and structure that was consistant and reliable have made for less suffering???