Sweden Isn't A Model For Democratic Socialism

Some clarity on this democratic socialism thing.

 

Does anyone not actually know this?

I find it amusing that a libertarian site feels compelled to explain this to Bernie supporters when it's almost exclusively the right wingers who want to conflate higher taxes, universal health care and education with Stalin and Hitler.

The general consensus among the left is that the Scandinavian model is closer to socialism than the American one, so it makes sense that socialists would support such a model as a step towards their ultimate goal.

 

And what is that ultimate goal?

Lenin said the goal of socialism was communism. Do you agree?

 

I'm not sure, but he might be dead. If not, I''ll be awaiting his latest pronouncements

 

I think its important to keep in mind that the vast, vast, vast (did i stress it enough) majority of people on the left in the US have no interest in true socialism as the eventual goal, which is precisely why they admire the mixed economy systems of Scandanavia and elsewhere in Europe. And Canada. And Australia. Japan. Etc.

I think the only one who is confused is the OP. I'm pretty sure everyone understands Scandanavia isnt pure socialism....well, everyone who wants a similar system understands it, at least.

 

Probably because they know pure socialism doesn't work, as demonstrated by history.

 

I can't speak for all socialists and what they ultimately want, but I will say that their ultimate goal definitely isn't what you want to believe it is.

 

I can't speak for "socialists", since I'm not one. But I seriously doubt that Leninism is embraced by many people outside of Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea, and China--and there only by lip service. Bernie causes confusion by referring to himself as a democratic socialist (Lenin was a totalitarian socialist}, because the Bern is actually a social democrat who believes in welfare programs and reforming capitalism to reverse the trends toward increasing income inequality, eroding infrastructure, and environmental degradation. Bernie hasn't pushed for nationalization of industry, not does he begrudge capitalists profits. His social democracy would involve a Scandanavian-style mixed economy, with a progressive income tax that raises taxes on the 1% and corporations, higher minimum wage, infrastructure programs, Keynesian economics, universal health care, and campaign finance regulation--not all that different from the way the Scandanvians and other western democracies operate. I haven't heard any takers for communism on these forums. The ideal of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is a utopian ideal I haven't heard anybody calling for in American politics. I'd settle for a few of the social democrat reforms I outlined above.

 

In the U.S people on both the left and right view Scandinavian countries as being more socialist than what they are. U.S liberals view these countries as examples of how "socialism" can work.

Here's how some U.S liberals view Scandinavia:

 

Here's the bill for democratic socialism:

America might be ready for democratic socialism. It’s not ready for the bill.

 

Americans think Big Bird is an evil commie plot and its illegal to vote for Mickey Mouse in Maryland. Personally, I could not care less what people want to call it, I would like my vote to count for something and my constitutional rights restored.

 

You pretty much just have to call it socialism even if it's not. It's the only word Republicans understand. So if a policy is even vaguely "socialist" it becomes the USSR overnight. It's easier to just debate the policy itself. Clarifying what is and is not socialism vs social democracy and it's goals is difficult as shown by the quotes.

Yes in theory long term a socialist state would be communist as more and more industry is controlled for the good of the people. But even among socialists Communism is thought to be an idea not a practice. It's not something we really seek. Any country that upsets you already has much capatilsim in the goverment. Most agree a mix of the two is good. Once this capatilsim is intertwined a communist shift is not possible or least not easy.

There has never been a communist country. What you think is communist is not since after a short time the govement morphs to something different.

In small governments it does. But like with any system the more cooks in the kitchen the harder it is. I think even you would not dare say American captilism works as intended 100% of the time without 0% greed or corruption. Europe is doing well with socialism.

 

Except people in Europe wouldn't call it socialism.
I guess people tend to call anything that resembles a welfare state socialism, and think that any country that has a public health system or free education or whatever other horrible things is socialist.
There are really no socialist countries in modern Europe though.

Anyways, the term's been overused and misused, and now just seems to be one of those divisive/tribal things, and people adapt its meaning according to whatever point they are trying to make, or whatever agenda they seem to be pushing.
Posts by The Boy Who Cried Socialism kinda prove it (btw, you shouldn't be so scared of a mixed economy with an extensive welfare state, it's not going to bring the USSR back to life).

@unfocusedanakin Eh you're right, people should just focus on policies.

 

Even the American right wing is starting to admit the system is rigged. Although they seem to be in a middle ground where we can't say the dirty S word. What we can do it somehow regulate the capatilsim in a non-socalist way.

Soon they will see it's the same thing.

Tucker Carlson has sparked the most interesting debate in conservative politics

 

^Tucker Carlson has been surprising me lately

He said a while back that single payer healthcare made sense too

He strikes me as someone who has always been conditioned to believe things are or should be a certain way, and he's only recently started to give his conditioning some deeper thought and is now slowly breaking out of that mold

:whispers: Come to the dark side Tucker. We all float down here

 

Best to avoid it, I guess.
People misuse it, it often has negative connotations, and some people can't wait to yell SOCIALISM at good policies.

 

It would be fun if his last name was Jobs :-D

 

Haha i wish!

 

I associate the S word with a more egalitarian society. A more modern society. I think there are misconceptions as previously mentioned about the S word, so I don't use it. But I think there is much to be learned from Europe and Scandinavia in that they score pretty high in terms of polls on happiness and so forth. They have the best healthcare or the best workplace equality etc. You're almost always hearing something about it. I hear Iceland is the best for equality for women. That's got me thinking. Is Iceland a socialist country? | Study.com

 

I was like that when I was 20. Then I grew up.