Struggling with the "moral issue", but with an open mind

Okay guys. So let me first start out by saying I am not "pro-meat". I do not promote killing animals nor eating them, and I don't think it's "right". But at the same time, I'm not convinced it's "wrong", either.

That's my main problem with vegetarianism. I completely support those who are able to commit their lives to it, but as someone who has grown up like most of the world eating meat, the fact that I can eat healthily while eating meat (or as a pescetarian) makes it seem pointless to try and become a vegetarian. That is also because I'm not entirely convinced of the immorality of eating animals.

Now, with that said, I am not satisfied to just say "oh well, it's the natural order of things, I guess it's fine". I'd like to come to a solid conclusion, which is why I'm posting here. I too am horrified by the inhumane treatment of animals we've all seen in videos and pictures, but I'm mostly talking about the general eating/killing of animals here.

Why is it wrong? If our reason is because it causes pain/suffering, unfortunately we can think of a possible situation in which we could kill an animal and not cause pain and suffering (while it's sleeping with a painless method). That would also suggest we can kill human beings in the same way (if our only reason for not killing is because it causes pain/suffering).

If it's because the animal has a right to live, why can we still kill plants? Plants are living, they just don't have a brain.

This is a very complicated issue to me.

 

I am not sure I understand what you are asking? Are you looking for arguments in favour or against meat-eating? Do you need to be convinced why vegetarianism is the 'better' lifestyle (or not)?

It looks like you already have a few personal principles established: you don't think it is morally wrong to eat/kill an animal, but you do not agree with animals being treated badly.
If this is true, it looks like you might be best off ensuring that the meat/fish you eat comes from sources where you are convinced the animals have been treated well, whereas refusing meat/fish from sources that are more dodgy or simply unknown.

 

It comes down to the moral preconceptions that you bring to the table. You have revealed a couple of yours: that you consider plants and animals morally equivalent, and that you consider humans and animals morally different.

The moral preconceptions of vegetarians tend to be different. We tend to see humans and animals as morally equivalent, and animals and plants as morally different.

So the argument for not killing animals is not based on pain and suffering, though of course those should be avoided. Rather, the argument is based on analogy to humans: if it is wrong to kill humans, then it is wrong to kill animals because they are like us. Plants are in a different category, and we eat them.

The reason it is so hard to explain this to most people is because almost no one questions their own moral preconceptions. And the reason that such discussions often get heated is because no one likes to have questions raised about their moral preconceptions.

 

If humans and animals are morally equivalent, and animals and plants are morally equivalent, then logic dictates that humans and plants are morally equivalent.

If A = B, and B = C, then A = C.

I support vegetarianism (and veganism although I know not how to do either) but the logic here needs revision, it would seem - unless you meant to imply what I said and I am a fool for missing it.

 

The pain and suffering that most animals have to go through is mainly in how they are being kept while still alive, not the fact that they are being killed.

 

Well, I am not likely one to look to for 'moral' guidance... However, I will gladly offer my view on it.

There is nothing wrong with eating animals. They will eat us if the proper opportunity appears. That is nature.

There is something wrong with factory/commercial farming of animals as it is being done in our societies... massively wrong.

Animals should be raised with care and respect, given a happy and fear free life and death. Their remains, should be used with respect and to the fullest extent possible, with the un-usable portions being returned to the earth.

 

You need to read my post more carefully. If A=B and B<>C then A<>C.

 

You're right, I misread your post. Thanks for the clarification.

 

Vegetable farming kills multitudes of animals such as insects. The trucking and flying of vegetables to the market also kills more. Furthermore, the packaging of vegetarian products is no less harmful to the environment that those used for meat products.

Yes the pain and suffering involved in animal farming is rediculously evil. But just as bad is the run off of fertilizers into ground water and air pollution.

Commercial enterprises all suffer from scale. Small enterprises can look more closely at environmental issues. Large cannot.

It's not enough to be vegetarian, but one should buy organic and from heirloom, and small farms and collectives.

 

Very true.

If it came down to a conflict between being vegan or being sustainable, I would have to go with sustainability as being more important and doing more good.