Strangers in the Mirror, with urgent messages

lol

well the world was alot more fucked up than i had originally anticipated. besides, when did i say i was going to change the world only through music? i'm still doing what i can.

 

HeHe, just living up to my sig quote

(I know you understand I'm just giving ya shit. All in fun)

 

Pbsmith: Im definitely glad you challenge some of the op's views such as the 'scientific evidence that schizophrenics are tapped into alternate dimensions' bit but I do agree with Desos that I think you are pretty close minded in acknowledging the possibility that some of the perceptions produced by psychedelics may tap us into different realms/realities/dimensions. Im not confident enough in that view that I would ever assert that they for sure do, but I can't deny there are some states of mind I've experienced on psychedelics that I could just dismiss as a psychotic symptom.

I may be wrong but I thought I remember you defending it in a few threads, so I assume you're a Christian. At least 2 of those 3 symptoms you have listed there are commonly reported by many of the Christians I've met.

 

You couldn't be more wrong in considering me closed minded about the possibilities. I just don't accept things without considering them through critical and skeptical eyes. I think the biggest difference between say Desos and myself in regards to such things is that my viewpoint is tempered by many more years and experiences then either you or Desos.
(Yeah, I know that makes you guys annoyed, but it is the reality of life)

If you haven't noticed yet I also completely abhor flowery, pseudo-spiritual talk that when boiled down to the actual definitions and context of the words often used, amounts to a bunch of mumbo-jumbo.
I like to consider the infinite possibilities there could be, but I also am intelligent enough to realize that the approach so often taken, and Desos adopts this attitude a lot, that our current state of existence is somehow inferior or in need of "correction" isn't the correct perception to adopt. Reality doesn't need adjustment, just our perceptions of it do.

There is a difference in being closed minded and being pragmatic and keeping shit within the realms of what we do know.
There are certain laws that govern how the universe works, and regardless what we may or may not like, everything that occurs has to follow those laws. Do we yet know or understand all the laws that govern the universe?, no, of course not. But I am confident that the laws we don't yet comprehend must work in conjunction with and follow the laws that we are knowledgeable about.
You can't just make up magical dimensions and shit because it seemed good during that psychedelic trip.

As I have stated to Desos numerous times, I have been where he is philosophically and spiritually, so I totally get it. Why is that so hard for you young guys to fathom. But with extra years my views have grown and mellowed. Just because I'm not going off the deep end in my trip reports about talking to entities and communing with God or similar shit does not in the slightest mean that I don't maintain an openness concerning such things. But again, lets keep shit within the realm of what is common, verifiable and reproducible. Simply put, if such alternate dimensions or realities exist, then they must conform to certain aspects of the laws that govern the universe. When I refer to universe that entails ALL, internal and external realities and experiences.

As far as defending Christianity, if you look closer you will notice I mainly attack the gross misrepresentations of what the Bible says and what it doesn't. Too many base their understanding of Christianity on popular thought or media representation, and most people I have encountered here and in real life that are so opposed to the Bible and it's teachings never even bothered to read the damn book or make an effort to understand beyond their pre-conceived notions of what it says.
Without making any declaration of faith or belief, I will say that I have personally encountered and experienced far more "supernatural" phenomena when I was active in Christianity then any other time or place in my life. Pretty much most "gifts" of the spirit mentioned in the Bible, and a few miracles for lack of a better term. Usually such things occurred in small groups and not in some big-top circus setting like the fools you see on TV.
I have considered relating some of those occurances, but frankly HF is so vehemently anti-Christian that I don't want to deal with the BS about "sharing" and "witnessing", as I'm sure that is how such things would be viewed. If you don't believe that then go look at the list of posting restrictions Skip has in the Christian sub-forums. No other religious sub-forums have such restrictions.

Having said that, I'll conclude by saying that I am actually probably a lot more open minded concerning "mystical" shit then either you or Desos.
I've certainly experienced my share of it.

Like I say on my profile page,
Learning more and knowing less everyday.:sunny:

 

I like the way you think, i'll rep when it lets me

 

The fact you use age to justify you being more open minded than 2 grown adults is an example of why I peg you as close minded. Are you still going to use that justification of age when your 74 and I'm 50?

 

:smilielol5:

When did I use my age as a mark or proof of being more open minded?
All I simply said was I have more life experience and have most likely experienced more "mystical" or "supernatural" shit then you guys.
You misunderstand. I'm not using age to say I'm more open minded. I'm saying I posses more life experience than you do, therefore what you may view as closed minded could simply be a matter of "been there, done that" *yawn*.
It's like if I don't get all excited about some facet of existance that is new to you guys but something I dealt with 30 years ago, you say I'm being closed minded about it. No, just I already went down that trail and found it led nowhere, so I ventured onto others, same as you guys will.

Damn, you guys sure are sensitive about age, aren't you? Can you deny that I have more life experience and by virtue of that I just might have a little bigger viewpoint than you and Desos do at your ages?
Do you feel as if you have more knowledge, maturity and wisdom then somebody say 11-12? I mean that would be roughly equivalent to the age difference between you and I. Are you closed minded because you have lived twice as long as an 11 year old?
If not than why do you insist on attributing such crap to me based on nothing more than my age?
Why in the hell does that ruffle your feathers so fucking much???

You guys may be grown adults, but I have kids your age, so you don't seem as adult to me as you do to that 11 year old. I don't mean that as a derogatory statement, it's just the simple fact of life and getting older.

 

I can neither say one way or the other that you have more life experience than Desos or I. I only know you through this site.

An 11 year old is not fully developed and therefore probably does not possess the capacity to critically think on an issue like this. But I'm sure I could not just assume the 'been there done that' stance to every experience that 11 year old has. I probably would take the input of that 11 year old over a senile 80 year old with alzheimers though even if that elderly person had a wealth of life experience.

I find your consistent critique of some mystical aspects of psychedelics and then belief/defense of Christianity contradictory and ruffle the feathers more than the age thing, I said that was just an example.

There are plenty of things not 'common, verifiable and reproducable' in that faith of yours such as oh I don't know, fitting 2 of every animal on a giant boat, walking on water, talking bushes, coming back from death after 3 days, turning blood into wine, alternate dimensions' like heaven/hell, parting seas at will, etc.

 

i like the talking devil snake

 

Again, your making assumptions about what I may or may not personally believe in regards to religion. Actually I find no contradictions that you seem to see, but that is because as you say, you only know me through this site.

Maybe you need to go back and read some of the trip reports and other things I have written. I never deny any mystical aspects of psychedelics. Actually I would have to say that the deeper more spiritual or mystical facets of my psychedelic experiences are what I don't put into trip reports here. At least those aspects that are more personal rather than universal.

I also really enjoy how you have pigeon-holed me into some religious framework, and are now going to try and use your preconceptions regarding that religion and me in some fashion against me. But remember, it is only what you have concocted in your mind about me based on a very few comments.

I defend Christianity in the same manner that I defend LSD. I base it on what is present for us to evaluate. My arguments about Christianity have NEVER been anything about the specifics of the beliefs but rather the mis-interpretation of what is written in the book. Really, go look at any of my few posts regarding Christianity and you will see that is the case.
My defense are along the lines of pointing out or clarifying what the actual wording and context is rather than the truth or validity of what it says.
That is a crucial difference.

But in keeping with being open minded, what if the Christians are right and every word of the Bible is true? Are you willing to be open to that possibility? I find a lot of "open-minded" people shut the brain door when confronted with that possible scenario.

And if we are going into the realm of unknowns and possibilities, then the Biblical take on things is just as valid and viable as many others. I mean if you are open to the possibility of alternate dimensions accessible via psychedelics, then why not a literal heaven and hell?

It's all good though GB, I've gotten used to the friendly contentious attitude you have adopted towards me.:2thumbsup:

 

'Go back and read and see I never deny any of the mystical aspects of psychedelics' he says.

<===========scrolls up page

To Desos

'Ill rely on that over the pseudo- spiritual, quasi-mystical mumbo jumbo you often purport to experience and 'guide' you'.

What if he's right??? Oh wait a second seems like your brain door has already been shut.

 

You can post lengthy, eloquently written passages all night that give me more and more ways to point out your contradictions on this issue Pbsmith and justify them in your head however you wish, I often enjoy and in fact agree with alot of what you write but that's something that I feel bothered by. I don't care why or to investigate why but i felt I should bring it to attention and did.

 

but to what extent does life experience cause one to become jaded? i would define knowledge as containing a healthy balance of wisdom and experience. although, pure intuitive wisdom can sometimes account for factors which wouldn't have been accounted for by experiential wisdom.

i think that it is just human nature to do certain things at certain points in one's life. but that doesn't diminish the ability of youth to travel to new places, or the knowledge that older people have gained. i do understand where your coming from somewhat though. there are things, sometimes, that when people discover them, i'm just like... meh...

but it is the light of youth that allows these things to be looked at in a new light, to bring new life onto the age old issues of humanity. because maybe where one person moved on, and learned from the experience, maybe at another time and place the right circumstances aligned with the right people and caused them to travel down a completely different road.

what a coincidence! i love flowery spiritual talk!

what i see is that our advancement as a society has brought us to a moral and spiritual degredation -- as our society falls deeper and deeper into materialism alienating us from our true selves, and our sense of community is destroyed as we are all brought into our own bubbles within the modern world. so when i say we are in need of correction what i mean is that we have as a whole fallen away from some of the things are are essential to our health as a species, leading us into some very dark recesses of humanity.

adjusting one's perception without adressing the issues of society is kind of like ignoring the elephant in the room.

 

There is a difference between acknowledging the mystical/spiritual aspect of psychedelics and being carried away with whatever a person thinks has been revealed through psychedelics.
As I have said numerous times, the first place to look when considering psychedelic experiences is within your own mind and memories. Then move on to the "other than me" areas if internal dynamics don't account for the experience. Too, too often people will jump to some external source and completely miss the lesson the psychedelic experience imparts because they look outside of themselves for the sourcing of the material of the experience.

I never ruled out the possibility that folks like Desos could be right. Simple fact of the matter is I DON"T KNOW FOR CERTAIN and neither does anyone else.

 

Not sure at what point people become "jaded", but some become jaded at a very young age, and people can be closed minded and jaded on both sides of the fence

I can agree with that, but it doesn't mean that youth carries with it some special insight that older people don't possess.

Yeah, I know

I can also agree with the above and see your viewpoint, but I also view it all as part of ongoing process. Adjusting ones perception does not negate trying to make our current situation better, but it puts it into a larger perspective.
It's all good and right for the moment

 

lol PB is trolling the shit out of this thread.

 

I do what I can...

 

LEMME AT EM *snarls*

 

Pictures in a Mirror (an old-timey tripping song, reborn)

Deep in the hollow jail
Sleeps Lord Randall
The mixed voices speak of bread
And of sheets that were scarlet
and blue are at his head
His heart like a cat drowns in a well
He thinks of all the girls he will not love
He thinks not of the future or of the past
Blue lightning spikes the hills above the sea
Where Kasa's ships set
sail for otherwhere

There stands the chief with
gold on his hair
Two fingers thick each link of coiled ore
Speaks to his white skinned
wife she answers not
He hurls his question angry to the gulls
His wife strikes her mouth
with a skull like sound
The bleeding image of her loss
revolves above her mind
With every line in its design
an accusing eye
That pierces Kasa's soul

The slaves row on beneath
the dragon flag
His heart recoils recall his red-haired son
Beneath the burning walls
that he razed down
His wife and he speak not
as wine is brought
A cup that seethes like the
black blood of wolves
His wife's dagger is hidden in her dress
He drinks joyless to a dark sleep

The gaoler bangs the iron door
Lord Randall wakes in pain
He shakes his shackles
in the beaten gloom
The blood of his wounds is hard as coal

The gaoler leads him out
upon the blinding bright stair
He feels uneven turf beneath his feet
The priest intones, the sword
falls on his neck
The pain is boiling cold

They lay him in the tomb
at the break of day
They close the earthen door
upon his clay
The birds are plucking worms
from the ground

Their feathers grey as mist
on a cloudy morn
Foresters burn branches
from the sleeping trees
The white sun turns to stone

Myyyyyy mother lies in her labor
Nine days long
She called on Saint Bridget in her time
I looked out on the room of mv birth
With hangings rich of
many strange designs

Nobles stand with their wine
cups in the room
Saluting me and she the King's queen
Already I am forgetting who I am
Already I've forgotten who I've been

My mother lifts me up
to her huge soft breast
Her nipple like a berry both
hard and brown
Her eyes look on me like waves of the sea
And with small lips
the yellow milk I draw.

 

but the converse is true, right?