Story of Adam & Eve

A couple of things.

I believe that the first mention of him as Satan is in Job 1:6.

The Tree of Life? Dunno. So that man would be immortal? I think you mean the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. That I can answer.

Free will.

Here's the idea. If you force or coerce someone into loving you, is it really love? Love, honor, respect, etc. must be freely given. So, God wants us to love him of our own free will. If there was no option to disobey God, then there really is no free will. For example, if you are locked bank vault, you do not have the option to leave. You might not want to leave or you might be scrambling at the walls trying to get out, but you have no choice. You have to stay put. However, if the vault door is wide open, only then do you have a choice. So in essence the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil could have been any tree in the garden. I do not think it was some mystical tree that imparted knowledge. The knowledge came when Adam and Eve recognized that they could (and did) disobey God.

Everything aside, no God is not the tempter. God did not entice them to eat of the tree. He simply put it there and said "leave it alone." If anything, He did as much as He could to prevent it (His justness would prevent Him from destroying Adam for no reason and it would prevent Him from removing the Tree as that would, in effect, remove Adam's free will). He told them "if you eat, you will die."

Once you realize that God's justness is as great and as infinite as His mercy and His love, you will have a much better understanding of Him.

Also, reading the Bible like a novel is a VERY BAD idea. It was not meant to be read that way nor does it actually read that way. If you want to read Genesis accurately, then you must read it for what it is - a historical narrative depicting factual events. That is what it claims to be. You wouldn't read a Terry Pratchet Discworld novel as a historical narrative or a biography, would you? Pratchett's Discworld books are meant to be read as humorous fantasy and it is in that light that we read them. Genesis is written as literal history with specific historical claims (some verifiable, others not). You have to read it in context (i.e. as a part of a larger work - the Pentateuch) or you are simply reading it as you want to see it (not what the author wants you to) which could easily be a misinterpretation of the text.

 

Alsharad, you paint a vivid picture. From what I gather, this God fellow is some insecure pimp who doesn't want anyone else to be happy, correct?

"Forget the happiness of all my creatures. I would rather have a handful blindly worship me, so the rest may torture, rape, and murder one another--also the ones who worship me may torture, rape, and murder one another." If this is "justice" and "love," I believe I may have never once in my life heard either word in the proper context up until this very moment.

 

God is so tempting to me... mmmmmhhhh, hot God essence.... mmmmhhh..

Lemme lay a parable on you borther.. (intentional sp)...

My mom, who loves me to death (666 spells mom on your phone--- just on your phone, not mine, satan spelled mom with 666 on your phone!!! trust me!!!) told me that everyone only ate the white stuff on the inside of the orange when i was a little kid, and that we were the only people in the world who knew that you ate the inside inside of the orange.

 

How does it follow that He is insecure? God doesn't need us to be happy. He didn't make humanity because He was lonely, or because He needed us. He made us for our happiness.

Where does God say that? He wants us to all be happy and to go to heaven for eternity. However, that would be unjust. That would mean that no matter what you did on this world, we would go to heaven. Hitler, Dahmer, Gacey, Stalin, Lenin, murders, rapists, torturers, etc... all would meet you in heaven. Even those people who hate God (and they are out there) would be dragged into His presence forever if everyone goes to heaven. There would be no justice in that. If an you have two options, but both options lead to the exact same result, do you really have an option? There is no free will if everyone goes to heaven.

Justice demands that lawbreakers be punished and that the innocent be spared. Love demands mercy. God gave us two choices - one with good consequences, one with bad. We chose poorly. God's love stepped in and provided a way for us to escape punishment and return to communion with Him in the person of Jesus Christ. So again, we have another choice. It's all about free will.

 

what would a child do if you left him in a room with candy?? You told him not to touch it. Be honest. Thats right, it is natural to want to touch the untouchable. " he did as much to prevent it." ?? Not really....not puting it there would be more like it. Oh, but that would mess up this ..."free will thing".

thats right, speak to us as if we are misguided children, as if you actual understand it all. Not really. I do believe you believe your own retoric though.

"Genesis is written as literal history with specific historical claims???"
you have to be kidding.
OK...lets take it as a "history book". Genesis chapter 1, verse 26-28. To sum it up, He created man in his own image. Both male and female. And told them to " be fruitful and multiply". Ok...is that "he him...that was male & female created the them", is that one person? male & female in one person? OK i'll buy that. But how do you be fruitful & multiply with your self? Ok...there were 2. Male & female. This is the 6th day mind you.

CHAPTER 2 verse 3.......the 7th day.
This is where it gets funky
CHAPTER 2 verse 7.......he makes Adam
Is that on sunday? hummm, maybe monday.
and by the way, ....what happened to the man & woman he created on the 6th day? The ones that are being fruitful & multiplying? Are those the mythical people from the land of Nod? Who knows? Did they get a try with the tree of knowege of good & evil too?
CHAPTER 2 verse 18......God made woman.......again?

History follows a time line. History is consistant with that timeline. Not vague, choppy, and inconsistant like Genisis.
Fantasy is inconsistant, purposely vague. I don't know what "disic world " is, but I do know the differance between real history, and fantasy.
nice try though.

 

That is a crude and inaccurate analogy that doesn't represent the situation at all. Let's change it up a bit.

Take an adult (Adam was an adult not just physically, but emotionally and mentally as well) and put them in a room full of thousands of different types of candy. Tell him that he can eat anything in the room except the one candy that is poisonous and will kill him. Then point out the poisonous candy and show him exactly where it is (so he won't eat it on accident). Now, what would he do? Most people would just not eat the poisonous candy, but then again, some would because they just want to make sure it is poisonous. People are silly that way.

Even then the analogy is flawed because humans now have a tendency to disobey (the sin nature)... something Adam and Eve did not have.

I don't understand it all, nor do I claim to. Most people, however, forget that God is just. He MUST do what is fair. Always. If you break the law, He is obligated to punish you as a matter of His own integrity. Most people do not understand this. I did not mean to sound condescending - my apologies - but most people have this idea that because God is love that He is wrong to punish us or that He (in this case) rigged it so that we couldn't pass the test. That is just not the case. He is not responsible for us failing the test. Let's try this analogy:

A teacher gives a test to his class. The test is fair and covers material that was discussed in length in class and in the textbooks. The teacher prepared the class as best he could for the test. Bobby has studied hard and scores well. Billy, however, never read the text and skipped class often. He fails the exam miserably. Is it the teacher's fault at all that Billy failed? Is the teacher to blame based soley on the fact that he gave a test at all? If Billy is not at fault because the teacher gave the test, then should Bobby recieve any accolades or scholarships due to his score? After all, if the teacher hadn't given the test, Bobby would have no score. So shouldn't the teacher recieve the credit over Bobby?

You see the problem with thinking that God is at fault for 'tempting' us? God set up a test and Adam and Eve failed. The test was fair. They knew what they were doing and willfully disobeyed God.

First, Genesis 2 is a recap. Specifically, it details what happened on the 6th day. It states this plainly in verse 4 - "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven".

Second, how is it vague? How is it choppy? How is it inconsistent?

Three, how do you know fact from fiction? If I say that I have been to the moon, is that fact or fiction? And no, fantasy is not inconsistent with itself. Maybe with the real world, but not with itself. Just to make sure we are on the same page, what do you mean by 'inconsistent'? I take it to mean a violation of the law of non-contradiction. Is that what you mean?

 

oh. you didn't like my anlogy.....so you made up your own to suit your beliefs. typical
I used that anlogy for a reason. This was the first man, he hadn't been around the block. Because there was no block. He was mature emotional, phycially in every way? Experence is the only teacher of maturity. ( you will find this out ....in time). OK...he has no memory because .....he has no experence. But God had majiclly gave him all this "maturity and emotions....automaticly huh? I must have skiped that verse. Where does it say that? (note: it is important not to make up your own version of the scripture to suit your belief). So, I find he is very child like. I don't buy the "instant mature man" thing. It never says that. I think...according to the 'story' that adam was pretty low on the IQ scale, Maybe even in the single digits. No ....experence....no memory...how smart can you be?? Maybe a 3 yr old child? That is the reason for my anlogy.
Now for this 'free will thing'.
let's see, he gave adam a job....take care of the animals, take care of the crops. You have power over all them and the fish too. Did we lose this "power' somehow? I don't have power over any animals ....or plants....or people. Fish, great white sharks and everything huh? nope.
So, I hear God giving alot of orders...do this do that ....don't touch this. But, Adam has free will right? Or was that the curse he put on adam for disobedience? Let's asume that he was 'born' with free will, along with that maturity thing. I try to put myself in Adams place. "take care of my plants and animals" God said. " But God man, I really don't have a green thumb, and animals spook me. Can't I do something else?" Adam inquired. You see, he had free will to question God. If he didn't like Gods plan, he could speak his mind. But no, he obeyed without question. "yes God". Sound like a child? yeah, me too.
I made all my points very clearly about the timeline. But you chose to ignore them. Chapter 2 verse 4 never says this is a recap. Recap of what? Chapter one verses 26-28? Or is it a "recap of Chapter 2 verse7. You can not "recap' something you havn't written yet. Is it oh, I forgot to put the story of Adam & Eve in Chapter one after verse 26? Well, I put it up in chapter 2. That my friend, is choppy. It doesn't follow a logical timeline. Very important , from a historical prespective. That is Vague. So, don't read it like a novel...read it as fact huh? It is written in a scidsophrenic manner. i.e. part 2 before part 1! that is inconsistant. Or is that a common writing occurance in the bible?....yes it is. I stand corrected ....it is 'consistant' in its inconsistancy. lol

How can I tell fact from fiction. Fact can be proven. ( dig up dianasour bones, the dinasour exsisted!) proven.
Fiction....at least good fiction is one ounce of truth, one ton of fantasy. Look, I love God. I just broke out of that confining, strict, bibical regiment of basic beliefs. I grew up in the church, literaly....my dad was a preacher. So, I know the bible, beutiful book, it is the salvation of man, on the 10 comandments alone. But I surpassed that "believe this or burn" mentality long ago. God is more loving than that. I excersize my 'free will' often, Just not the way you do.

 

it's that whole free will thing...

I think that the whole Adam and Eve story is quite cool, although I don't know how literally to take it.

 

I don't take it literally at all...it's an illustrative story of how we each individually turned our backs on God.

 

God doesnt have to be insecure depending on what or who god is. God coupld just be an essence. He might like to see mans temtations , fears etc. I think we still have alot to learn from god and he has alot to learn from us.