Story of Adam & Eve

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by MarkN, May 27, 2004.

  1. MarkN

    MarkN Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

    I thought I would ask this question about the bibical story of Adam & Eve. It's been on my mind latly.
    Why do you think God put the tree of life, (of all places on the planet), he chose to put it right there in the garden of eden. Then told them not to touch it.
    I can't help but feel that God was the true tempter by placing the tree there in the first place. Yes, I know it was the "snake". God made the snake. He had to know what was going to happen. It really sounds like something a "person" would do......not a God. A mean person at that. I'm not trying to be blasphmas or disrespectful in any way. I don't want to argue. I genuinly want to here others opions of this.:)
  2. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    There is nothing blasphemous about asking a valid question.

    It really is 'the' question and what most all questions come down to;

    "Why would God allow evil to exist? .. why would God allow People to choose evil?"

    Here we seem to have the good old 'Free Will' situation at the core of things.
    The thinking goes - Unless Adam and Eve had the ability to choose Evil (or in this case knowledge of good and evil) then we are left with people who are certainly good and Godly - because they 'had to be'.

    This question has never really 'baffled' me but its one I can never fully see clearly.
    Its always as if Im trying to comprehend something beyond human imagination.

    Good question!

    I wish I had more of an answer?
  3. Smudge

    Smudge Member

    God made the 'snake.'

    Well He created the angels.

    One third rebelled, (as with any loving Father, as Brocktoon said, He gave them free will also)... included in those angels that rebelled was Lucifer...who, in pride, (the most hidden insiduous sin), wanted to make himself like God.

    Lucifer/satan was in that serpent....don't know how- but I do know that evil spirits can enter into animals.

    Yes, God doesn't want to force us to love, and therefore obey him.
    If we have kids we can work out why...
    So, He, God, did take a ''risk'' when He created humans....
    But Love does take risks...risks being hurt and rejected itself...
  4. Alsharad

    Alsharad Member

    Here is a short explanation:

    "We need to ask and answer two questions. First, what is evil? It is that which is against God. It is anything morally bad or wrong. It is injurious, depraved, wicked. Some acceptable examples might be murder, rape, stealing, lying, and cheating. Second, if we want God to stop evil do we want Him to stop all evil or just some of it? In other words, if just some of it then why? If He were to stop only part of the evil, then we would still be asking the question, "Why is there evil in the world?".
    Let's suppose that someone was about to commit murder. God would have to stop him, maybe whisper in his ear, or if that didn't work do something a little more drastic like have something fall on him, or stop his heart, or make his hands suddenly fall off. Anyway, God would have to do something.
    Let's take it a step further. Suppose someone thought something evil. Then, of course, God would have to step in and prevent him from thinking anything bad at all, right? The end result would be that God could not allow anyone to think freely. Since everyone thinks and no one thinks only pure thoughts, God would be pretty busy and we wouldn't be able to think. Anyway, at what point do we stop, at the murder level, stealing level, lying level, or thinking level? If you want God to stop evil, you would have to be consistent and want Him to do it everywhere all the time, not just pick and choose. It wouldn't work.
    Evil is in this world partly because we give it its place but ultimately because God, in His sovereignty, permits it and keeps it under His control."

    Now, you might say, "Couldn't He just make us perfect and that way we wouldn't sin?" He could make us incapable of sinning or He could make us perfect, but perfection will always include the element of free will. A being that has no free will is not perfect; it lacks some sort of cognative ability. God created beings with free will. Free will allows us to act in a manner that is not always in accordance with God's nature. These non-accordance actions are, by definition, evil.

    He gave them a command that was to their benefit. It would be better if they had never known what good and evil were. But, as free agents, they could choose to disobey God and therefore sin. You might say that God was at fault because He put the tree there. This is inconsistent. God HAD to put the tree there and then command them to not eat of it. Why? Because God is wholly just. The option to diverge from God's will had to be possible or else it would be no better than having no free will at all. Let me clarify with a crude example:

    Imagine as a child you are walking and you come to a pond. You mother has told you "do not get wet." Still you have two choices. You can swim across the pond or you can walk all the way around it. One method is obedient, the other is not.
    Now imagine that you are walking in the desert and it hasn't rained in weeks. There are no ponds, rivers, etc. Now your mother's command "do not get wet" is superfluous. That you have the cognitive ability to choose has no bearing on the matter; you, in reality, have no choice because it is impossible for the situation where a choice would have to be made to occur.

    If God created a world where people have the cognitive ability to sin, but then makes the world so that it is impossible to sin, that is as unjust as removing the cognitive ability to sin. God had to give Adam and Eve the tree AND the restriction in order for them to have free will. It had to be possible for Adam and Eve to sin or else God was being unjust. The serpent was the tempter because he lured Eve towards disobedience. God simply said "don't do it" and allowed them to choose either way.

    Does that answer the question?
  5. spinelli

    spinelli Member

    These words, so very frequent in my thoughts. I once felt, were words of a cop out nature, an excuse for not finding an understandable answer. Yet, is it not an answer within itself for a human to actually comprehend that the nature of a question is beyond their comprehension.

    I look at this bible story as a symbol of man's existence having more meaning to us symbolically even if it did actually occur.
    It wasn't a great plan gone wrong, it was meant to happen.

    Prior to eating the apple represents mans ability to live an illuminated, god-like existance. The possibility and capability man's free-will possesses
    God placing the tree of life in our hands and asking us not to touch represents mans free-will to create his own existence. And the essence of faith required.
    The snake represents the earthly influences that challenge our faith, that entice our senses and shift our focus to thoughts of our physical pleasures and our personal satisfaction.
    Biting the apple and its great repercussion for man represents the connection each man's choice has on everything else on earth.
    We are meant to bite the apple, expected to sin. By doing this we are suffering our own consequences. By suffering, man comes closer to God. By coming closer to God, man refrains from biting the apple.

    Once again this story, depicts God as the one causing us pain. The old "well if God was real why is there war" or "if there is a God, then why would he take my loved one away from me"?
    Lets not focus on our personal pain but look at the big picture, the long term affect, the eventual repercussions on all man. Like Jesus did!
  6. weaselpop

    weaselpop Member

    The snake had a motive - she was Lydia (i think that's the name) - Adams ex.
  7. spinelli

    spinelli Member

    The plot thickens
  8. Smudge

    Smudge Member

    Hey, come we have to have a female serpent now? :D

    It's bad enough the man blaming the woman for tempting him with the fruit,...(as they have done ever since :rolleyes: )
  9. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    Ya.. I think she meant to reference Lilith?

    Lilith was said to be Adams orginal 'first wife' who left him because he was too bossy.
    In a bizarre twist of 'insinuated insult' - feminists thought it was cute to revere Lilith as a feminist icon.

    (Lilith Fair taking her name)

    Although it wasnt stated in the topic - I think the original poster is asking questions based on the traditional 'classic' Adam and Eve account as presented in Genesis.
  10. strawpuppy

    strawpuppy Member

    Worth reading:

    A Test of Time: The Bible - from Myth to History by David Rohl.

    changed my whole perspective on everything I had been taught, and made me a different person.....
  11. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    I guess Im a little surprised to hear that it had this kind of affect on you??

    Read a lengthy in-depth article here -->

    One of my complaints about these critical analysis of biblical archaeology is that they count on the readers to have an over-rated expectation of the fame and signifigance the Jews had on the 'Global Culture' at that time.

    Yes.. absolutely true that Moses and the Israelites have extremely high significance to Judeo Christian culture today!

    But... keep in mind they were not very signifigant to the Egyptians, or any of the 'Big Players' of the day.

    So when you find out there is not a whole lot of records of wandering former-slaves in the wilderness - dont be so 'shocked' about it.
  12. strawpuppy

    strawpuppy Member

    It was one of a long list of books on the subject.
    I have spent most of my cognitive life trying to find the truth, and have ended up an athiest. It was one of David's books that carried the proverberal straw.
    I remember the moment well, I was waiting for thunder and lightening to descend from heaven the day I actually came to that conclusion. But what a relief to believe in humanity and not in the given gods.
    If you have studied history in detail, then you will be aware of some amazing things that people who claim to be religious are totaly unaware of.
    An open mind, and a never ending quest for the truth, brings up a whole new perspective on the topic, add what technology has taught us and it becomes even more fascinating.
    Maybe there is hope for a new consensus.....When people stop trying to believe that only one way is right because their god told them (and their god's orders usually equate to a human representative).
    As an athiest, I do not believe there is no god, just something bigger that It is too hard to explain here.
    But whatever, I respect the faith of others, just not the intolerance of some, to believe that only one way is right, when it gets to brute fore, violence and hypocrisy......
    S'cuse spelling...It's late and I've one too many glasses of red...Yum, Mnnnnnnnn.

    Love, peace and harmony.....

    Henry theroux (my hero)
  13. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    Its fascinating reading your post becasue its almost a perfect 'mirrored' parallel to my own world view.

    I would say an open mind, and a never ending quest for the truth, brings up a whole new perspective on the topic, add what technology has taught us and it becomes even more fascinating and ultimately to the understanding that Jesus is God and lives today.

    Maybe because my 'quest' started with Bertrand Russell and then through Evolutionary thinking and eventually to Christian Apologetics.

    I might be one of the rare Christians that came to faith via the sciences and the search for materialistic explanation for the Universe around us?

    I doubt I will ever find David Rohl to 'change my life' because I dont find it very surprising or even conclusive.
    Maybe your previous expectations were so grande that you could not help but be impressed?

    Did you assume there was volumes of historical records of Kind David?
    Had you believed that Moses and the Exodus was indeed as grande as portrayed in 'Block buster' films like 'The Ten Commandments'?

    Im honestly asking because that would explain your impression of Rohl?
  14. MarkN

    MarkN Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

    Ok....let me get this straight...
    God made Good....and he made evil...before the garden existed.
    humm...what was the original purpose of evil before man?
    He made Adam & eve, everything was groovy. Adam was busy naming animals for god. ( how he did this with out free will in the 1st place is a mystery to me).
    God told Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree, because if you do you will die. But they didn't die. ( was this a blatant lie? or just a scare tatic?) Yes I suppose its supose to mean some "spirtual death". God did'nt tell eve this directly. But thats no excuse, Adam told her what God said.
    Now the snake.
    God made the snake more subtil (WHY?) than the other animals. He could talk even! The snake told eve, "go ahead and eat it, you won't die." ( the snake was right!, they didn't die). Also, it doesn't say anything about satan being in the snake.
    So Eve gave adam some of the apple. What was Adam thinking?....he knew what God said about that fruit. Now remeber, this is BEFORE the free will thing. Or was it? He seems to have made a choice to take a bite. But when God found out .....he blamed it on Eve. She in turn, blamed the snake.
    When God found out he said, " what have you done!!! I told you not to eat that stuff!!"
    Then they start blaming each other. At this point if I was Adam, I would have said, "I told her what you said God, but look ....why did you have to put that tree here anyway? You didn't want us to bother it. Why didn't you put it on the other side of the planet? I think you wanted us to screw up. And whats with putting a talking snake in here thats smarter than us?"

    "And the lord God said, Behold the man is become as one of us,"

    Who is ..."US" ?
    More than one God?
    God gets mad...throws them out of the garden, and puts curses on the whole bunch of them. (why get mad, he knew what was going to happen).
    Of course, I'm looking at God as if he were a man. I have no choice, because I don't have the mind of a God......just a lowly man. It all seemed like a very mean spirted thing to do. If God was a person , I would tell him that.

    I had to break out the old bible and re-read this story. (king James version).
    Its a beutiful story.
    But I think people over intellectualize it. And their arguements begain to sound like math problems. "if a train leaves chicago at 70 mph...."
    Simplicity has more answers than trying to make it fit to suit your own beliefs.
    Its a great story....that is designed to make you think.
    and that is a good thing.
  15. gnrm23

    gnrm23 Senior Member

    the genesis story (stories)...
    a strong part of jewish & chrisitian (as well as muslim) tradition (tho with different emphasis in each)(for some jewish mystical speculations on this stuff, see _the zohar_)...
    as well as similar tales fo the beginning found in that geographical region going clear back to the gilgamesh epic...
    and from within the jewish/christian/hellenistic mix that gave the world the gnostics comes another side of genesis story, with a different slant on the serpent, the jehovah-god, the struggle to bring light/wisdom into this dark world...
    with archons, pleroma, sophia, sammael (as the blinded demi-urge & the klutzy artist who flubbed this world's work & was the gods of the jews & was not the power/spirit/father behind jesus' mission) & a cosmic battle for the fate of the universe...
    oh, and check out _ the book of J _ at your local library for an interesting look at one thread (the "jawist" tradtion) within genesis...
  16. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    Its going to be difficult to keep a discussion rolling here since you pretty much loaded that post with any and every possible question and point that can be made lol...

    Can I just throw out a few quick replies throughout it....

    Its hard to say 'God made Evil' but he certainly made sure Lucifer had the ability to chooose evil.
    Yes, this is before Adam.
    The purpose?
    Thats 'The' question I suppose but it certainly made sure Lucifer had that 'free will' to choose.

    Adam had Free Will.
    That Adam was naming animals implies he was created with a basic sense of knowledge.
    Its signifigant because it assures us Adam wasn't an 'adult child' unaware of where he was or confused about objects and places.

    They died spiritually and they died physically.
    They were given a true statement.

    The Snake lied to them.
    They did die.

    Your right about one thing though... Genesis does not specifically say the Snake is really Satan.
    Later teachings do but it seems The Author just lets us assume its Satan.

    Cant overemphasise this enough - they had free will.
    The whole account is clearly demonstrating this all the way up to this point and even past it.
    The fact they were choosing to do this on their own says it all.

    Notice Adam tries to blame Eve.
    God will not even listen to that.
    Adam was in no way forced to 'go along' and made his decision himself.
    Adam is just as guilty as Eve and both are guilty of blaming the Snake.

    If the tree is on the otherside of the planet - then that would not give them much of a choice.

    There is no reason to believe the Snake was smarter or more intelligent than Adam and/or Eve that I can tell?

    This is just one of several passages where God refers to Himself as a 'Plural'
    (I think its Elohim in Hebrew??)

    This makes a lot of sense to Christians but I suspect it was mysterious to people before the Trinity.

    There is a highly signifigant result of the original Sin that you have glossed right over...
    It is one thing that Adam and Eve decided to believe the Serpent (who only gave them the idea)
    More signifigant is that Adam and Eve decided to follow their own wills without consulting Gods will.
    Then after all this they choose to hide from God.
    They decide to go their own way.

    So its much more than the one simple act of biting and swallowing the fruit.

    You can make a good argument that Adam and Eve brought these consequences on themselves through their choices.
    Not just some victims being cursed for no reason.

    I don't know if I would say its being broken down into math-problems but yes.. there is a certain amount of logical deductions and implications which can be found.

    Some points of the story leave us with 'insinuations' and can't really be 'calculated' I agree.
    Example - After having sinned, Adam and Eve 'realise' they are naked and then try to make clothes to hide their embarrassment.
    So we can 'deduce' they were not aware of their own nakedness before but we can only speculate on what that really means.

    It 'indicates' that in a perfect world people would not even notice how they appeared to others?
    That Sinless People dont even notice others appearances?

    So we can't really make a complete logical conclusion on that.
    We are left to get the 'feeling' for the situation.

    I think we can strongly agree on one thing for sure - its much more than just an amusing 'hollywood' story or 'action scene'.
    It does make us think about the very nature of humanity and free will, truth and how relevant our own 'modern day' behavior can be found in that one original situation.
  17. MarkN

    MarkN Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

  18. Smudge

    Smudge Member

  19. strawpuppy

    strawpuppy Member

    OK time for you to shoot me down in flames. is a personal quest, and was never intended to back up a debate....

    AND IT AINT OVER YET........!

    The story I have in my head so far, is that Moses wrote the bible. He was educated in Pharaoh's palace as a child and was probably influenced from an older piece of writing that came out of Iraq possibly up to 2000 years earlier....(I have forgotten the name of these tablets/tablet but it is qiute famous...also there are supposed to be many comparisons bewtween that and Moses bible, including a whole set of verse that is practically identical).

    Moses identified this writing with his own roots (Abraham/Noah ?) and so wrote the bible in an effort to unite his people, (living under harsh conditions at the time)..(try also looking at who was king at the time of the Jews return from Babylon, and where that king found the ancient writings/laws of Israel).

    Moses however seems to have left out the beginning part of the tablets he learned from, mainly that a female goddess created man from her rib because she had accidently poisoned him and he was dying..?

    An interesting thing thrown up was that Jehovah could possibly have been a minor god, for after the flood, men were so angry with the gods (or scared of them) that a minor god (Jehovah, was adopted as the main one)....
    However, before the tablets Moses studied from were written, there was already another civilization that we can examine...Catalhoyuk:

    It appears that...(along with the other "mother goddess" statues found around the neolithic globe)....this very large lady played a big part in people's lives in Catalhoyuk.

    Now I am not a femminist or anything, but pre flood folks had a thing about bulls and large ladies....?

    Cutting it short: (Cause it's past 6pm and I've already started my first glass of "unwinding" red wine)....

    The story in my head so far is:

    WE are GOD because WE come from a unified, time, universe, universes, everything....give that consciousness a name and I call it GOD...a sum of all our consciousness.....Howard Bloom:

    If the planet has been around for a couple of billion years, then it is likely that a civilization exsisted that may have had longer to evolve than us...... Global warming and Ice ages:

    If the "Giants of Old":

    are the remnants of an earlier advanced civilization who are now "locked in chains"/"prison" under the earth...............Then maybe the strange phenomina that occurs in this planet is comming from the only place on earth that has never reallysuffered from an ice age...BRAZIL.....where there is a long and ancient lore of people living under the earth:

    Back to the begining:

    Alas, I spent too much time trying to analyze the "psycho babble" in Adam and Eve's predicament. So I decided to try and find the begining of man.....
    Which led me through many interesting "mind voyages"..and led me to the above conclusion....BUT, I believe that Jesus was the greatest man who ever lived...AND he may possibly be the SON of GOD, our son, who we made, to save ourselves, because we LOVE......

    Now shoot me....

    PS...I did use a lot of seriously academic books in my research..U Know..Cambridge and Oxford university presses types, also, I try to get what the "brains" think on the topics, IE; Harvard, Smithsonian, Official weather, archeaology ect: et al.........
  20. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    Good Call Smudge. funny but I never noticed he blamed God too.

    MarkN and Strawpuppy.... I gotta tell ya.. you guys are getting either way too obscure or obtuse for my mind now lol ;)

    Its late and I took and Advil so I cant even begin to start a reply to either of those posts hehe.

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