Star Wars: The Last Jedi’

In chronological order, return of the Jedi and then the last Jedi kind of sounds off and not well planned.

 

Being able to discuss a film in depth does not necessarily mean it is of high quality. People still talk a lot about The Room.

But yeah, Ren is the best character in the movie by a longshot. The scenes between him and Rey were the highpoints of the movie.

 

Thanks, it's encouraging to hear.

 

I believed Kylo, and as another poster said, many people (including James Earl Jones himself) thought Vader was lying back in 1980 when he told Luke he was his father. Shockingly enough, Kasdan and Lucas were even prepared to reveal it was a lie in VI if it didn't go down well with the fans.

Perhaps Ren is manipulating her...but assuming they are actually siblings/cousins, I think a better tactic would have been to tell her she actually was a relative.

I am hoping they don't do that though; it will make the Star Wars universe seem too small. Her powers need some other explanation.

 

That would have pissed me off so hard if Anakin hadn't been Luke's father. The whole thing that makes the original trilogy special is that Luke saves his father. Aye yie yie. smmfh

 

WAIT WHAT??????!!!!!!! Luke is Vader's son? Dammit where's my spoiler warning??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Her powers already have some other explanation. She has a high midiclorion count. (Powers explained, now what is the next problem with the series? )

 

The Phantom Menace will be 19 years old this month

I am still way more angry about it than i should be....for what is really just a movie

#letitalldie

 

The Last Jedi wasn't made with the intent of pleasing the mass market because they thought its success was guaranteed. With TFA, they were playing it safe because there hadn't been a Star Wars film in a while and because the prequels were unpopular with fans and critics.

And TLJ did make lots of money. But much less than TFA. From what I gather they didn't expect the decline in revenue to be as steep as it was, and didn't seem to anticipate the negative fan reaction. That's ultimately why I think they will be more cautious going forward. Disney has invested a lot of money in Star Wars and ultimately will do whatever they can to keep enthusiasm high.

I don't want to get into a long conversation about this either, but even if you're willing to overlook all of the film's other leaps of logic, Holdo not telling Poe about her plan is as close to "objectively" bad writing as it's possible to get.

I can understand her keeping it a secret from him at first. As you point out, he's a subordinate - and an uppity one at that. He doesn't really need to know and it was probably annoying to Holdo to listen to him prying.

But once he learns about the existence of the transports, and especially after he commits mutiny, it just doesn't make any sense for her not to come clean about her plan. It would do more damage to the resistance, at that point, to keep it a secret.

It has nothing to do with Poe deserving to know what was going on. Or needing to know what was going on, for that matter. It has to do with Holdo having no believable motive for her actions.

TFA was full of cynical marketing decisions. I never said TLJ was. I said it was not as creative as people make it out to be.

A film can be uncreative and still not be made with the mass market in mind. A perfect example is a film like this that reverses expectations, thinking it is being bold and avant garde, but is really just reacting to what came before, without putting enough satisfying new content in its place.

I don't think Johnson is an uncreative person, but I do think he was so focused on undoing what Abrams had set up in VII (and believe me, I understand why) that he failed to focus on making the film stand on its own.

Nope. I thought it was a good choice because to make Rey a nobody because not doing so would have made the Star Wars universe seem too small. I disagreed with Lucas's decision to put Boba Fett in the prequels for the same reason.

Yeah, I know, it's an intergenerational saga. But if you had started TFA by introducing Rey as Luke's daughter, or as Leia & Han's daughter, it would have not have seemed as if they were building up to a big, shocking revelation (that in reality would have surprised no one). Had Kylo told Rey "you're a Skywalker", it would have made a lot of audience members groan. Just too obvious.

I should not have to read the Official Guide to the Star Wars universe or Wookiepedia to learn where Rey got her powers from. If a point this important is not explained in the movies, than it is on Abrams and Johnson, not the audience.

While we're on that...why didn't Snoke mention it? The throne room scene would have been a great time to reveal this, if that really was Johnson's intention.
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That may be the case. Sometimes male writers are afraid to give female characters too many flaws because they are afraid of looking sexist. Ironically, this in and of itself is sexist (women are not, in fact, as boring as both male and female screenwriters and authors seem to think). In the end all this attitude does is create dull female characters.

I don't think she is unlikeable. I think she is a bit of a Mary Sue (it's possible for a man to write a female version of himself as a form of wish fulfilment), but it does not get to the point that it ruins the movie for me.

No, I just think that her powers are just so unusual, in the context of the Star Wars universe, that they demand an explanation...and so far, none has been given. Anakin, the most powerful Jedi who ever lived, wasn't nearly that gifted when Obi Wan and Qui Gon first met him. Neither was Luke. And yes, their struggle to master the force did make their stories more entertaining (well, Luke's anyway, the prequels skip over the first 10 years of Anakin's training).

Mmm. I felt the hemming and hawing just made him seem sketchy and more untrustworthy. Giving Rose the medallion back was a nice moment, but to me, knowing about his eventual treachery, it was just meant to signify that the character (in spite of his villainy) wasn't a literal psychopath. A fine point to make, even people who do terrible things can have access to the full spectrum of human emotions.

Even so, it didn't add much complexity to the character.

And I didn't feel that DJ was an effective foil to Finn. The "old Finn" wanted to escape the First Order. He wasn't actively taking advantage of people like DJ was. To suggest that Finn could see himself "becoming like DJ" doesn't make sense because worst case Finn would run and hide in a remote corner of the galaxy where no one would pursue him. I could not see him swindling and betraying others like DJ did.

I am glad they didn't make Han like DJ. It would have undone too much of the character growth that we witnessed him go through in the OT.

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I addressed this in my comments about the Holdo plot hole. (To reiterate it's not Poe's character I have a problem with; he has a decent arc and the message is a solid one, it's the irrationality on the part of Holdo herself.)

Yes, there were moments of reflection and analysis in the Last Jedi...the problem was that not all of them made sense.

Again, great...but...why was this not explained in the film?

The film does not tell us why Luke felt the Jedi had to end, except that they were full of "hubris". There was a deleted scene that went into a little more detail about it, but again...not in the film.

Luke's decision to hide away was what was explained, not his cynicism about the Jedi.

Now, he does mention that the Jedi were indirectly responsible for the creation of Darth Vader and the Empire. But this makes no sense as an explanation, because Luke already knew this. He knew it perfectly well in the OT, when he learned how his father fell to the dark side. And he knew that this was not the normal state of affairs, because the Republic lasted for 1000 generations before the Sith returned and the Empire rose. Why would he change his mind about the Jedi just because eventually, they made a fatal mistake?

Yes, it became personal after Ben Solo betrayed him; but again, we already know why he felt like a personal failure. What I wanted to know more about was his idealistic objection: what it was about the Jedi, specifically, that made him see them a "failed religion".

We know it isn't just his fear of people being trained in the force and using it for evil. The reason why we know this is because he doesn't seem to believe that no one should use the force. The way he talks to Rey when he gives her his "lessons" makes this clear.

"That Force does not belong to the Jedi," he says. "To say that if the Jedi die, the light dies, is vanity." He wants people's connection to the light to last.

I think what he really wanted to do was reform how people were trained in the "use" of the force (with good in mind as the goal). At first, he might have seen this in terms of turning his back on the Jedi, but perhaps, he could have eventually come to realize that the Jedi, themselves, could still be reformed. That would have chimed with the theme of knowing what in the past should be left to "die" (the dogmatic approach to using the force, perhaps) and what about the past should be maintained (the sense of discipline that the Jedi had, perhaps).

As I've mentioned before, this would have helped give the 9 films an overarching theme and sense of purpose. It would have connected the three trilogies much better than they are now.​

But the younger generation would have known things weren't always like this. The Old Republic stood for 1000 generations. The New Republic didn't last 30 years. It's clear that whatever sickness in the force brought the Sith to power in the PT is still lingering.

I know that it's "about" the Skywalkers (barely, though, as Ren is not even the protagonist of the Sequel Trilogy). But that's not what I mean, and in my opinion it's not a satisfying answer. A family isn't a satisfying main character in the way that an individual person is. Intergenerational dramas have been done well before, but the theme becomes the main character in a sagas like these. There's darkness and light in all these trilogies, sure, but that's a pretty basic place to start.

Originally, Star Wars was a standalone film about a young man who went on an adventure to save his world from the forces of evil. Then the series was a trilogy, but still focusing on one character, and it was about his maturity and evolution. Then, it was a 6-film series, and an intergenerational saga, but there was one character (Anakin) who played a pretty important role in all 6 movies. More than that, there were clear themes; it was about fall and redemption, temptation and the power to resist temptation, how love can drive family apart and how love can bring family together.

We know what distinguishes Anakin from Luke. What distinguishes Kylo Ren from either of them? He seems like Anakin...kinda? If he had been played by a better actor?

That's the only way to go, as far as I'm concerned. I'm glad to hear it.

That's where I'm less hopeful. The question is how he will tie all these films together in a satisfying way. And how he is going to do that while trying not to further alienate the fanbase. It's a herculanean task, one that even a very good filmmaker could easily fail at.

But anyway, I've already explained my concerns. I can honestly say I am with you, crossing my fingers, hoping he will make something that will impress me.

I hope that this new series will be entertaining. It's unfortunate that it's necessary to watch a whole TV/Netflix series to fully understand the context of the ST, but I get what you're saying; it could put a lot of this into context. I think they could do a really good job with it.

There is probably some truth to this. But I think that if Abrams and Johnson had given us really stellar films, even the most jaded of old school fans would have embraced them - and the new characters. People like to be entertained, and if they see something really good they are not going to sulk and whine about Luke, Han, and Leia being missing. I think it's indisputable that the older characters were better written. People do like what they know, but they also like what is good.

I think this has more to do with Rey's blandness than Ren being "such a great villain"...but yes, he is the most interesting of the new characters.

I agree. For all of their faults, I'm surprised so many people think these films are worse than the PT.

To call something better than the Star Wars prequels is not saying a lot, though.

 

I don't think any of this happened at all.

When did Luke reach into his sister's mind to forcibly extract information?​

Why would Obi-Wan even NEED to forcibly extract information from Luke?

You must be thinking of something else.

I guess because Jedi don't go around raping people's minds... it's sort of a violation.

Or maybe you just want to come up with an explanation that allows you to keep being angry about it.

 

But nobody actually thinks that The Room is a good movie and it's not divisive. People mostly just quote the funny dialogue or laugh at how weird it is.
There's a real debate among fans and moviegoers as to whether TLJ is a disaster or a triumph, a massive letdown or a rejuvenation.

Nobody debates Marvel movies in the same way because they're all so formulaic.

 

Well, maybe.
I know that Rogue One is pretty popular among fans and it's absolutely gratuitous.

But I still don't think that they believe doing TFA over again will produce another massive success.
There was a backlash against that one as well.

Beyond Poe not having a right to know, Holdo also didn't know how Poe would react if she told him the plan.

I think it stands on its own just fine.

Most of the buildup had to do with fan theories about who Rey 'really' was.

Well, my theory is that they thought everyone would get it, seeing as the mind probe acts as a clear demarcation between 'Rey who can't even lift her arm when Kylo uses his force powers on her' and 'Rey who can do Jedi mind tricks and defeat wounded Kylo in a lightsaber duel'. At the very least, I knew that this scene had 'unlocked' something inside of her. Plus, there's already quite a great deal of exposition in these movies already.
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The mind probe scene 'unlocking' her dormant abilities is the official explanation-- it's clearer in the novelization. I think part of the problem is that at this point, just giving her another training sequence would be too repetitive and derivative. So instead of getting Jedi training, she got some cynical lessons on how she doesn't need the Jedi.

I thought he just liked to keep them guessing. He was a little eccentric from the getgo, so I didn't think it was a sure thing that he would betray them.

I think the general idea was that if he chose to live a solitary existence and not choose a side, ultimately he would end up believing that both sides were equally wrong like DJ did.

I guess for the same reasons that the rise of the Empire, who Vader was, etc... wasn't clearly explained in A New Hope. They wanted to portray a galaxy with history and depth, that felt appropriately 'lived in', where the characters knew what had happened but the audience wasn't entirely clear.

His cynicism about the Jedi was connected to his personal failure, which he tied to the failures of all of the Jedi before him. It was sort of a cover story to prevent himself from shouldering all of the guilt over Ben's turn to the dark side.

Because Vader's turn wasn't his fault... while Ben's turn was (or so he believed).

He has psychologically separated the condition of 'being strong with the Force' from the identity change that results from 'being a Jedi'.

He blamed the Jedi religion for his failure with Ben so that he could avoid accepting the blame personally, largely because Ben's turn ruined his family, their future and contributed to the rise of the First Order and all of the suffering it has caused and will cause in the future.

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I think he just didn't want to put Rey through proper Jedi training, because he felt that doing so would risk losing her to the dark side in the same way he lost Ben. If he really wanted to 'reform' these things, then he would have actively been seeking to train others, not trying to destroy the Jedi religion completely (or work up the nerve to do it, anyways). The 'you don't need to be a Jedi' thing was for himself, not for Rey. But by the end of the film, he knows that the Jedi religion is still worthwhile, which is why he says to Kylo 'I won't be the last Jedi'.

I have a theory that Rey will somehow distribute the knowledge in the texts across the galaxy so that the people living under Kylo's regime can begin to train themselves as Jedi in order to fight back. There were hints of this in the scenes with the children on Canto Bight, especially at the end when the boy used the Force to pull the broom into his hand. ​

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Well, we all know that the holocaust happened... but that doesn't quite have the same impact on a person as actually living through it.

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Rey, Finn, Poe, Leia, Han, Luke... all of them are effectively a 'family' defined not by their bloodlines, but by their shared values. Kylo had been flirting with redemption until maybe the last 30 minutes of TLJ where he effectively committed to evil. Rey was tempted by Kylo, but of course she resisted the temptation. It doesn't have to be about Anakin in order to have the same themes.... it seems they're simply approaching it a different way, so instead of the emphasis on genes and midichlorians and bloodlines, they are emphasizing shared values, identities, common goals.

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What distinguishes Kylo is that he isn't merely a puppet like Vader and well, he isn't good like Luke. Vader was always more of a tragic figure who had been doomed to serve his evil master on account of becoming crippled and broken and deformed, being unable to reconnect with his humanity and becoming 'more machine than man'. You had a sense that he really regretted being what he was and hated doing what he was doing, but couldn't break free. Kylo on the other hand has killed his master and has committed to evil on his own volition. That is what makes him distinct. There is no real tragedy in his life that has pushed him towards the dark side. It's sort of a commentary on the dangers of dynastic rule.

I think all of these movies are like that. ​

Star Wars has always been like that, sort of. Both ANH and TPM began with situations that weren't completely clear.

How is anyone supposed to top Vader, Leia, Han or Luke, without simply repeating their arcs over again?
Also, Han, Lando and Leia's ROTJ arcs were really weak.

I am really hoping that IX gives the new characters a chance to shine... I am picturing a time jump where Finn and Rose are trying to start a family under Kylo's regime, Poe is trying to rally other systems to join a new resistance and live up to Leia' legacy as a leader, Rey is trying to decipher the Jedi texts, and Maz and Chewie are dating and farming porgs and giant green milk cows together.

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I think it's because they had to bring back Luke, Han and Leia, but all of the bad guys are new.

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Whenever anyone insists they're worse than the PT, I just assume they're using hyperbole.

 

Lol. some essay length posts going on

I could watch TFA again in the time it would take to read those last couple of posts

 

I really dont think there is going to be a Kylo regime

I hope not anyway, a first order 2.0 storyline would be yet another, empire vs rebellion thing, and well yawn


The latest news is that JJ Abrahms is still set to return as writer and director for ep 9, which would mean back to a simpler storyline, and lots of lens flares

 

I picture him being more like Caligula than Hitler... causing pain just to see others suffer as opposed to using terror to bring others under his control.

Basically, I think he will do to the galaxy what he did to that computer terminal when the guard told him that they had lost the droid... the Emperor, Snoke... neither of them were interested in destruction for the sake of destruction. There was always order, always a sense that things were organized, disciplined, in control. Kylo doesn't have that quality... which is why I think his regime will be different.

 

Hummmmmmmm right then surely people aren't this..... Dammit. Nope I'm done. Well done sir you've managed to shake both my faith in humanity & apparently my brain as well. I see now that you simply can't comprehend that it is possible for someone to find legitimate faults in a film, talk openly about those faults, yet still not hate said film. I'm just done. Logic be damned.

I need a fuckin' beer.....

 

Well, I guess you can always tell yourself that I'm just a nasty, stupid person and that you argued your points really well, using logic, reason and an in-depth knowledge of film and scriptwriting.

That option is always available.

 

Or I can just acknowledge that putting up with your constant insults, lack of coherent rebuttals, & desire to fit anyone who doesn't see things your way into a box full of haters, as signs that this is a lesson in futility & bid adieu.

 

I don't actually think you're a 'hater', just so you know. I know you weren't talking to me here but I did say as much earlier; 'twas meant in jest. I think you make some good points.

 

I figured you were just joking. Like my jest about Luke & Vader spoilers. Appreciate the compliment though