Socialism Is The Future

Discussion in 'Socialism' started by unfocusedanakin, Jul 15, 2017.

  1. Beutsecks

    Beutsecks Large Rooster

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    Besides, where is there a model that can be held up as an actual success for this?
     
  2. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Because I had trouble finding stats.
    That's why I added the new source.
     
  3. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

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    I'm not sure about the rest of Europe, but in the UK socialism has been a dirty word since the Thatcher era back in the 80s. Governments since then have been trying hard to claw back everything that was rolled out by the Labour govt. of 1945 under Clement Atley who introduced a range of socialist measures including the welfare state and the National Health Service. Union power was smashed down by Thatcher and has never recovered.

    Whilst I support democratic socialism, I do think that there will always be problems with it unless it also includes major structural reform of the entire system which is set up solely for the advantage of the ruling elites. We've gone in the space of 30 years or so to a situation where in one of the world's richest countries working families have to rely on charity food banks to even feed themselves. Unions are toothless, and the NHS is being deliberately starved of cash and run down because they want to privatize it. In effect they want to unravel socialism and go back to a kind of laissez-faire economics similar to the 19th century.

    I think that trying to bring in socialist measures under a basically capitalist system is always going to be fraught with such reversals. Not that I would want to see anything resembling Soviet totalitarianism coming back, but if socialism is to prevail, the system needs to change very radically.

    Persuading a largely brainwashed population of this in the face of the right-wing media is not going to be easy. But I think that people are beginning to wake up to the extent to which they're being ripped off by their present masters in Britain. Come the next election we could once more have an avowedly socialist party in control.
     
    autophobe2e and unfocusedanakin like this.
  4. tumbling.dice

    tumbling.dice Visitor

    I agree with you on this one, which is why I support a flat tax across the board for everyone (with a generous standard deduction, so as not to hurt poor people) without regard as to how they earned the money. Same for corporations, if they can't pull a profit then fuck 'em, they should be out of business. I also have no problem with some federal social programs: those that help the handicapped, mentally ill or elderly are a good example. The individual states can then decide to offer more if they wish, depending on their particular problems. But people that can take care of their own problems should be expected to do so. Struggling isn't necessarily a bad thing in the long haul.

    I don't have any big philosophical issues when supporting capitalism, I just know it has worked for me. That, and I can't understand why people would willingly trust the government to have power over any aspect of their lives. In the US, this is the same government that at one time forced natives from their lands; allowed kidnapped people to be brought into the country to be bought, sold, bred and worked to death; conducted immoral 'medical treatments' on children, minorities and the poor; fabricated the 'Gulf of Tonkin' incidents; bombs sovereign countries for whatever political reason is popular this week...and the same government that is currently being led by Donald Trump. I see government as the collective id of us all (to use a Freudian reference.) As individuals, that part of our conscience is something we are ashamed or embarrassed over, but get enough like minded people together and all of a sudden we don't feel so bad. In the end, that is how I predict a 'just' socialist government ends.

    "A little government, just like a little luck, are necessary in life. But only a fool trusts either of them."
    -P.J. O'Rourke
     
  5. tumbling.dice

    tumbling.dice Visitor

    I meant to ask, how much money does a person have to make to be considered one of 'the wealthy.'
     
  6. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Wealth and income are different.
    [SIZE=10pt]Table 1: Income and net worth in the U.S. by class, 2013[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=9pt]Wealth or income class[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Mean household income[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=9pt]Mean household net worth[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]Top 1 percent[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]$1,679,000 $18,623,400[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]Top 20 percent [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]$257,200 $2,260,300[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]60th-80th percentile [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]$76,500 $236,400[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]​

    [SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=9pt]40th-60th percentile [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]$46,000 $68,100[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]​

    [SIZE=9pt]Bottom 40 percent [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]$20,300 [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]-$10,800[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt][/SIZE]
     
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  7. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Shut up and eat your cake!!
     
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  8. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    The whole rig is geared toward extracting resources, turning those resources into plastic crap that we of course are convinced that we need, even as millions and millions starve from lack of food and clean water. It's an immoral system that obviously has to stop at some point, lest the limited resources contained on this little blue ball----coming from somewhere---going to who knows where--run out. Unfortunately, those that could see to changing the status quo have no desire to make the needed changes that would benefit earths population and the earth itself. A wrong turn was taken somewhere along the line by those in our distant past by succumbing to the worst instincts in human nature: the feeling of power over others and the accumulation of vast wealth. So it goes. I see nothing but chaos in the future if in fact
    a method of sharing ---a more equatable way to distribute the limited resources that are left, to ALL citizens of the earth. Socialism in some form will need to be brought to bear or eventually----

    I can't figure why humans continue the war-like, acquisitive mentalities that pervade the human psyche with the obvious world wide failures of such, staring us all right in our faces in this year of 2017.
     
  9. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    ----or we may get the socialism that is depicted in THX-1138. The face of the earth will be for the controllers, but there will be enough of us drones left underground to serve the privileged few. Check the movie out if
    you haven't seen it.Prescient,IMO.
     
  10. magickman

    magickman Supporters HipForums Supporter

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    Eventually we will have a One-World Government.

    The sooner everybody learns to go along with that concept, the easier it will be for everyone.
     
  11. magickman

    magickman Supporters HipForums Supporter

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    It isn't just a matter of being wealthy, it's a matter of your inner circle, per the power structure.
    Only certain people get that privilege, more a social group or class. It's who you are, who you are vested with, peripheral interests, etc.
     
  12. unfocusedanakin

    unfocusedanakin The Archaic Revival Lifetime Supporter

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    The kind of wealth most Americans never have mostly. The succusful doctors, business owners, whatever else might be considered top 10% of wealth but also might be a neighbor would have high taxes but not enough that a doctor lives like a high school drop out. The middle class would also pay more tax then now. But overall I think they would find they had more money because services they pay for are already taken care of. No one likes taxes but conservative Americans seem to have forgotten their necessity to society. They have this idea of the self made businessman being 100% in control of his success. No matter how original your idea or how hard you personally work there is some sort of infrastructure already there that you benefit from. And once the business is a success certainly an obligation to provide employees with a livable wage. Greedy businessmen fight a low minnium wage here to over inflate profits. What is the difference between 1 billion and billion cash profit to anyone? What can you buy that you really need if that is not enough money?
    And McDonalds makes around 15-20 billion in profit a year on the lie that they can not really afford to offer an employee more and not charge you insane amounts for the food or just replace the person with a machine. They will do that anyway when they really can at some point even if the minnium wage is $1 a hour it's the way of society long term anyway for low skill jobs like that. At some point the thing will still pay for itself when a person needs to still be payed. It's business practices like this that will be regulated in my ideal socialist society. The CEO of McDonalds will still be very rich but maybe only 7 billion in company profit.

    It's an change in society as a whole that it's not acceptable for a job to pay badly no matter education level or lack of. "Minimum wage" to me should cover rent on a basic apartment, utilities, food, plus some money left over for other expenses with a months pay from ANY full time job. You definitely can not do that with many American jobs. All jobs are obviously needed in society if you are needed to fill them. Because of that you deserve a decent life in that society. "Decent" is not necessarily the best society has to offer. If you want to be a rich capitalist sure think of a new invention or something and get rich. But long term I think the idea of total equality will lead to there being no "money". Why do I need a limited amount of paper to have something that I can just go take when I need? I have plenty of food, a house, recreational time. This idea angers lots of people. They envision lazy hippies and immigrants sitting around while they break their back. It can't work because everyone but me is a lazy asshole. Yes, humans are lazy and some will always coast by but same as now there will be various job placement or welfare programs for people having issues.
     
  13. David0301

    David0301 Members

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    i was born in austria (the home of socialism) / Europe. And let me tell you one thing: Socialism is - just as capitalism is - another way of ruling/enslaving citizens. Neither the european implemented socialism nor the american implemented capitalism is democracy. There is no democracy. We are ruled and governed by a few very powerful people and enterprises that make up 5% of the worlds population. They bribe politicians and enslave governments. They brainwash us through their media outlets and rage worldwide wars without our permission. There is no democracy. Democracy means people decide what will happen to life,planet,humans,food,plants,animals,peace. We are far from democracy. Revolution
     
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  14. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    Committing to any system with a dogmatic conviction 'this is the right one' is a setup for failure already. It makes more sense to take the best from every ideology/system and incorporate it in a new working one. Imo it should be some form of a socialist democracy with capitalist tendencies. Filthy rich people would be accepted, but naturally they will be taxed more. There's plenty of room for capitalist enterprises, but not at the cost of the poor and needy (or their health care, which can and should be free).
     
  15. tumbling.dice

    tumbling.dice Visitor

    Nothing is 'free'..what you mean is that you think someone else should pay for it.
     
  16. wilsjane

    wilsjane Nutty Professor HipForums Supporter

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    Capitalism fails when bosses become greedy. Socialism fails when bosses become incompetent.
    If we could combine the competence of capitalist bosses with overall state control, we would all live in utopia.
    Sadly, people capable of winning a seat in an election are rarely capable of running anything in real life, leaving a situation where a country has to appoint a minister for health who has no medical knowledge whatsoever and a minister for transport who does not hold a driving licence.
    Gilbert and Sullivan summed it all up in their operetta 'HMS Pinafore'. Our highly intelligent government responded by trying to ban it's opening performance.
    "Sit close to your desks and never go to sea and you could all be the rulers of the queens navee" LMAO.
     
  17. wilsjane

    wilsjane Nutty Professor HipForums Supporter

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  18. wilsjane

    wilsjane Nutty Professor HipForums Supporter

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    HMS America.
     
  19. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    Yes almost. Although not 'someone else'. If the system actually works for the people in it, health care can be financed in a way no particular individual has to compensate for the lack of income of another who unfortunately needs to make use of said health care.
     
  20. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Quivers_"socialism will not be accepted !!" I agree. Why would those in power give it up. Your use of the word "libtard negates most of anything you have to type. Childish.
     
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